Pentagon to deliver stealth fighters to Israel earlier than planned

[Paparock]

Pentagon to deliver stealth fighters to Israel earlier than planned

The Pentagon has agreed to start delivering its newest stealth fighter to Israel two years earlier than planned in an effort to strengthen Israel's air force as Iran moves close to gaining nuclear power. The US is expected to begin transferring the fighter planes, called The Joint Strike Fighter, in 2012.

"This plane can fly into downtown Teheran without anyone even knowing about it since it can't be detected on radar," the Jerusalem Post quoted a senior Israeli defense official as saying.

Defense Minister Ehud Barak said Israel gained permission to start receiving the stealth fighter as soon as the model becomes operationally available, at a price between 50 million and 60 million US dollars.

"We asked that for every two jets manufactured for the US, one be manufactured for Israel," a senior defense official said, adding that acquisition of the aircraft would greatly increase Israel's deterrence as Iran races toward nuclear power.

The defense minister also managed to persuade the Americans to allow Israel to install its own unique technology in the aircraft, which had been a major point of dispute between the Defense Ministry and the Pentagon, defense officials said.

Iran's president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, has increased his public messages threatening Israel's security and very existence. He recently announced that the Islamic republic has over one thousand missiles aimed at Israeli targets, ready to be launched in the event of an attack on Israel's nuclear facilities. These threats, in addition to the president's constant calls for Israel to be "wiped off the map" have caused much concern in the Jewish state.

[Garuda]

It's a wonderful news :3:

[sabre]

I think 2012 is not soon enough, how about late 2008 say around late December ???

[shelory]

I think 2012 is not soon enough, how about late 2008 say around late December ???

Israel gained permission to start receiving the stealth fighterhttp://www.irasprints.org/forum/uploads/saber1/smile.gif as soon as the model becomes operationally availableso its not that bad

[haamimhagolan]

The F-35 Joint Program Office has since gone on the record as dismissing the reports of early F-35 deliveries as being premature. There was an article on this in Flight International's website on Nov 11 (sorry - I can't post a link as a new user - but anyone can search for it on the "flightglobal" website)

According to the JPO, the earliest that deliveries might commence to Israel would be 2014.

There are a number of reasons behind this - including existing delivery commitments to the US Air Force, as well as ongoing delays in the F-35s flight test program.

[Fuimus]

It will bring joy to my heart to see the Magen David on an F-35's wings.

[shelory]

even better on the F22's wings, but only if israel gets them free, the 200 mil $ price tag it a little to high for israel to but on her self.

[NEW RON]

Cool news as long as the US does not also sell this tech to Saudi Arabia or even other alliies who could sell it to Saudi Arabia! (Lke the UK for example) And Im not just blaming the US or UK, Israel needs to stop selling military equip to China. China will without guilt sell the tech to the Arabs.
America and Israel must have the supreme millitary superiority if we want to defend ourselves against those who have promised to wipe us off the face of the world!

[Kiwi]

Well thats great News its nice to see the US Israel contection still nice and strong.

[haamimhagolan]

This week's edition of Aviation Week (Dec 17, 2007) had a series of articles regarding Israel's defense modernization plans, including one devoted to the topic of F-35 sales to Israel. The following are a few of the highlights.


The Knesset has recently approved a multiyear defense plan, that should - in theory - allow the Israeli armed forces to make better use of their resources. The principal is to allow the Defense Ministry to purchase major hardware items in multi-year contracts, that ensures a more sustainable production ramp-up. It also ensures that funding will be reserved for longer-term, research and development projects. Unfortunately, as some Israeli industry officials have pointed out, the plan currently approved by the Knesset could still be subject to change and eventually be shelved depending on the outcome of new elections.[1]

On the Gaza front, Israel is reportedly trying to avoid a large scale, ground operation, that could tie up manpower that might be needed to counter Hezbollah in the north. For this reason, there is expected to be a gradual shift towards more mobile, commando-style operations, utilizing helicopters to enter and exit the target zone. Of particular concern in this context, is the proliferation of night-vision equipment and anti-aircraft missiles among the ranks of Hamas. Israeli industry is therefore reportedly working on new navigation and night vision tools that would allow Israeli helicopters to enter and exit at higher speeds, and lower altitudes than are currently possible.[1]

With regard to the procurement of the F-35, a senior Israeli official reports that, "The plan is that we will get the F-35 as soon as it’s possible." Plans are currently focused on procuring a single squadron (around 25 aircraft) as soon as budget and the F-35's production volume will allow. According to one Israeli general, "The number of aircraft [we obtain initially] could be irrelevant. The main issue now is that we get the first squadron as soon as possible. We give the basic capability to the squadron, and later on we increase it."[2]

The integration of Israeli weapons and avionics into the F-35 is still seen as being a major stumbling block, as the Aviation Week article outlines:
"Israel’s ambitions to integrate indigenous weaponry also pose some problems for the program. The weapons road map for the Blocks 1-3 F-35 standards has already been drawn up with no Israeli weaponry on the list. Partner nations are currently working on a list for Block 4, but there’s pressure to cut weapons from the process rather than add them. Israel undoubtedly will want its F-35s to carry the Rafael Python 5 air-to-air missile and possibly its successor, as well as the Rafael Spice family of precision-guided weapons."[2]
Moreover, Israeli officials reportedly insist that they do not want their future fighter fleet to be overly dependent on stealth technology, and see the single cockpit arrangement currently embraced by the F-35 as having major limitations on the future battlefield. In the words of one Israeli general,
"Eventually somebody will come up with a way to detect it. A stealthy configuration also means you can’t carry additional weaponry on the exterior. The weapons system is more important than stealth. Israel will have F-35s, but not as many as we once thought. . . .
"We can’t operate the F-35 by itself. We really need two-seaters, with one person concentrating on flying and someone else focused on the strike mission. One man can’t take advantage of all the options."[2]
Another senior IAF officer also reportedly emphasized the need to integrate Israeli weapons and avionics onto future versions of the airplane. "You can’t wait to get [an upgrade to meet a new threat] a year late. You need to get intelligence, capability [and] precision on your own in a very short time. . . . We are working to understand what our enemies are trying to do so we can tailor our power to deal with it. The main reason why we have to modify the F-35 the relevant systems at the relevant time. We must be able to deal with them. . . . We’re also developing new systems and weapons that we can’t talk about. Sometimes reality is more impressive than the imagination."[2]


[1]David A Fulghum and Robert Wall, "Defense Crunch," [I]Aviation Week & Space Technology, 167 (Dec 17, 2007), pp. 50-51.
[2]David A Fulghum, Robert Wall, and Douglas Barrie, "Never-Ending War," Aviation Week & Space Technology, 167 (Dec 17, 2007), pp. 48-50.

[[MakkabI]]

Do you think Israel will get F-22 amd F35 fighters for sure?
USA should allow Israel to access F-35 programs again...

how many will Israel wants to buy F-22? Israel can buy alot of F-22 cause Israel receive so many $$$ from USA aids... no?

and why Israel have few F-16 planes while Saudi Arabia have so many like as 70 (Israel have only 25)...?

and is there any more planes Israel wants to buy or getting this year?

isnt most of Israeli fighters r old now? no?

[shelory]

israeli air force consists of F-16's and F-15s israel has alot more then 25 and also 70 F16's i dont know the numbers but im sure its like 200+

[haamimhagolan]

;22864']Do you think Israel will get F-22 amd F35 fighters for sure?

The US has agreed to supply Israel with the F-35 Lightening II (the "Joint Strike Fighter"). A lot of details (when they would be delivered, how many, and what Israeli avionics would be integrated into them) have not been agreed upon. I would expect to see negotiations on those subjects in late 2008, at the earliest.

The Israeli air force (Heyl haAvir) has expressed an interest in also acquiring the F-22 Raptor. The F-35 is a multirole fighter, with an air-to-ground emphasis. The F-22 is an air-to-air fighter with limited air-to-ground capabilities. The United States, however, is not willing to export the F-22 - and recently turned down a similar request from Japan.

[haamimhagolan]

israeli air force consists of F-16's and F-15s israel has alot more then 25 and also 70 F16's i dont know the numbers but im sure its like 200+

The following is a rough estimate of the Israeli air force's current, frontline fighter fleet, based on published sources:

F-15A/B/C/D "Baz" . . . . 52
F-15I "Ra'am" . . . . . . 25
F-16A/B "Netz". . . . . . 95
F-16C/D "Barak" . . . . .127
F-16I "Sufa". . . . . . .101

The Heyl haAvir also has a number of older F-4E, A-4, and Kfir fighter-bombers in storage.

[BrittleSteel]

;22864']Do you think Israel will get F-22 amd F35 fighters for sure?
USA should allow Israel to access F-35 programs again...

how many will Israel wants to buy F-22? Israel can buy alot of F-22 cause Israel receive so many $$$ from USA aids... no?

and why Israel have few F-16 planes while Saudi Arabia have so many like as 70 (Israel have only 25)...?

and is there any more planes Israel wants to buy or getting this year?

isnt most of Israeli fighters r old now? no?

You must be mistaken, Israel has (and soon having more) over 200 F-16 and at number of F-15s

[[MakkabI]]

Sorrry, i meant F-15

according to wikipedia... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-15E_Strike_Eagle#Operators

Israel: 25
Saudia Arabia: 70...

thats ****ed up!


BTW, is there any new projects Israel wants to building own warplanes (eg Kfir but new one?)

[Berger]

;22927']Sorrry, i meant F-15

according to wikipedia...

Israel: 25
Saudia Arabia: 70...

thats ****ed up!


BTW, is there any new projects Israel wants to building own warplanes (eg Kfir but new one?)

Israel has more F-15s, just not of the F-15I type. Most of Israel's air power is in F-16s.

I really wish Israel would start their own indigenous fighter/bomber program again. They already have the electronics aspect of the technology covered, and they have airframe experience from Lavi and Kfir, they could develop their own super-stealth technology (equiv. to F-22) and have different versions for fighter, long range bomber, etc. Like the Merkava it would probably be cheaper in the long run even without the US subsidies and give Israel a real technological edge. But probably won't happen :scratchchin:

[haamimhagolan]

;22927']Sorrry, i meant F-15

according to wikipedia... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-15E_Strike_Eagle#Operators

Israel: 25
Saudia Arabia: 70...

thats ****ed up!

The Saudis have much deeper pockets than Israel. The Saudis have therefore chosen to invest exclusively in the most expensive of warplanes available to them: F-15C/D models for air superiority, and F-15S models for air-to-ground. They also operate the European-built Tornado, which they expect to phase-out when they introduce the Eurofighter Typhoon during the next half-decade. These are ALL very expensive, two-engine fighters.

The Israelis on the other hand, have a far more limited defense budget, and have to think in terms of getting the best performance out of their investment. The F-16I has essentially the same strike radius as the F-15I, for less than half the price. It is therefore no accident that the Israeli military has focused their resources on the various F-16 models over the years, with a handful of F-15s to round out their capabilities.

Don't forget that a large part of combat effectiveness is tied up into the sensors and weapons that the airplanes employ, and most importantly, into the training of the aircrews. In the words of one aviation author familiar with the subject:
Those US Air Force, defense contractor and ex-patriot personnel who have served flying and maintenance exchanges with the Saudis, or worked directly for them, invariably return shaking their heads in disbelief. One pilot who returned from an exhange tour flying the Eagle with the RSAF had two very mixed messages about their pilots. On the one hand, he described two of the best Saudi Eagle pilots, each with more than 3,000 hours in the jet, as being the best "sticks" he'd ever flown with or against, to include his USAF brethren. On the other, he rated the ability of the average Saudi fighter pilot as being below par.

In contrast to the air forces of many Western countries, the Saudi AF has a reported inability to generate sorties. One practice that serves to highlight this is the predisposition to never launch sorties that combine a range of flying and tactical skills into a single exercise. For example, a USAF pilot who needed to maintain currency in air refueling would most likely plan a four-ship sortie that would involve going out to the area and flying 2 v 2 engagements until he was out of gas; hitting the tanker and refueling; splitting into two, two-ship elements and then doing some 1 v 1 work; hitting the tanker once more; and then heading home for practice in the radar or visual pattern. Typically a Saudi pilot in the same situation would only fly out to the tanker, refuel once and then come home and land.[1]
In terms of their ability to use their mounts in combat, I would bet on training and experience before I'd count on the deep pockets of the Saudis to carry the day.


References:
[1] Steve Davies and Doug Dildy, F-15 Eagle Engaged (Botley, United Kingdom, Osprey Publishing, 2007), p. 152.

[haamimhagolan]

I really wish Israel would start their own indigenous fighter/bomber program again. They already have the electronics aspect of the technology covered, and they have airframe experience from Lavi and Kfir, they could develop their own super-stealth technology (equiv. to F-22) and have different versions for fighter, long range bomber, etc. Like the Merkava it would probably be cheaper in the long run even without the US subsidies and give Israel a real technological edge. But probably won't happen :scratchchin:

It is extremely unlikely that the Israeli government would be willing to invest in a new development program like the Lavi. The problem that the Lavi ran into was not the ability of the Israeli contractors to develop the airplane, but the cost effectiveness of a solely Israeli design on such a small production run of fighters.

When the Lavi program was launched, the Israeli military assumed that the defense budgets of the latter-1970s - as a proportion of Israel's government budget and GDP - would remain a constant. They therefore assumed that they could expect to buy some 300 new fighters during the 1990s. In practice, Israel's economy could not support a post-1973 defense build-up indefinately. After the defense cuts of the latter 1980s, the Israeli military realized that they could perhaps afford 150 new fighters over the next decade - at most. While the Lavi was cost effective on a production run of 300 airframes, on a production run of only 150 it was not.

Any new Israeli development program would run into the same problem.

[shelory]

i think that israel would develop unmanned attack aircraft as it has the experience in unmanned aircraft construction before they would try agen to develop a manned plain, mainly because unmanned aircraft are cheaper then manned aircraft.

[haamimhagolan]

Getting back to the original subject of this thread, details are slowly filtering out regarding what changes the Israeli air force will want to see in the F-35s that will eventually be delivered to the Heyl haAvir:
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/01/11/220748/israel-to-boost-range-of-future-f-35-fleet.html

Current reports are focused on how they might be able to extend the strike radius of the basic F-35 to more closely match Israeli requirements. A firm order, however, is not expected until 2009, with first deliveries in 2014.