IDF announces purchase of the F-35

[BrittleSteel]

The IDF posted on their website that they have purchase the F-35 stealth fighter!:biggrin:

Here, is a question though. It seems to say in the article that the US will permit Israel to put their own avionics into the fighter. But I'm not sure. I know that this was the main point on contention between Israel and the US - did the US have a change of heart?

http://dover.idf.il/IDF/English/News/today/2008n/02/0401.htm

Newly Designed F-35 Fighter to Join IAF Fleet
04 February 2008 , 10:31
Shahar Hay

The newly designed F-35 military strike fighter has recently been purchased by the IAF. It will be integrated into the Corps' fleet in the next five years as part of the IAF's recapitalization plans. The F-35, a single engine, single seat fighter that contains durable low maintenance stealth technology, will provide images of the general situation on the battlefield through integrated avionics and sensor fusion that combine information from off and onboard sensors.
"The F-35 is a fifth generation plane that is directly designed to advance our operational capabilities in the coming decade," explained the chief officer of the IAF's recapitalization plans, Major Sholomo. "We are inspecting and testing the fighter's advanced technological system, in coordination and cooperation with the United States in order to improve the aircraft's capability and better suit it to this region."
The F-35 was designed and built in the US by Lockheed Martin and is expected to join the IAF's fleet in 2014. Major Sholomo added that, "this aircraft will provide advantages of fifth generation technology and will undoubtedly provide operational advantages to the Corps great needs in the upcoming decades."

[haamimhagolan]

The news report that you cited is mistaken. Typical journalists. The IDF only recently agreed that they would purchase the F-35 would be purchased as part of their next five year plan. No contracts have been signed.

All of the existing bones of contention still remain. The Heyl haAvir is torn between wanting to field the F-35 as soon as possible - which would mean accepting the airplane as-is - and a desire to integrate Israeli electronics into the airplane - something that will require several years of effort and a lot of negotiation with the US. None of these debates have been settled.

The F-35 is currently in flight test, with only one flying prototype completed. The Israeli government hasn't even begun the detailed contract negotiations yet, which aren't expected to be complete until 2009.

[shelory]

one question, israel hates one seated aircraft's, would it be possible to make the F35 a two seater aircraft?

[haamimhagolan]

As shelory alluded to, the fact that the F-35 is currently available only in a single-seat version is a shortcoming that Israel's military leadership has already complained about. The Heyl haAvir tends to favor two-seat aircraft for attack roles.

The US currently has no plans to develop a two seat version of the F-35, so this could become an ongoing bone of contention. Although it is conceivable that the Israelis could fund the development of a two-seat version on their own, the second cockpit would likely come at the expense of fuel capacity - and would be an expensive undertaking.

If they do decide to go this route, it might be advisable for them to split some of the development costs for integrating a second seat with the US Navy. The Navy also has a preferance for two-seat aircraft in many attack roles, and might be willing to split the cost for special tooling and assembly jigs that would be required for the new configuration. The US Navy is the last of the US customers that expects to receive the F-35, and might be interested in benefitting from Israeli innovations by incorporating them into its F-35C model.

[BrittleSteel]

The news report that you cited is mistaken. Typical journalists. The IDF only recently agreed that they would purchase the F-35 would be purchased as part of their next five year plan. No contracts have been signed.

All of the existing bones of contention still remain. The Heyl haAvir is torn between wanting to field the F-35 as soon as possible - which would mean accepting the airplane as-is - and a desire to integrate Israeli electronics into the airplane - something that will require several years of effort and a lot of negotiation with the US. None of these debates have been settled.

The F-35 is currently in flight test, with only one flying prototype completed. The Israeli government hasn't even begun the detailed contract negotiations yet, which aren't expected to be complete until 2009.

Wow, thats odd considering this article came form the IDF's own website.

[ryanUK]

i love the F-15 strike eagle and it will always be my favorite jet but this new F-22 raptor looks some serious hardware!!! i win the lottery i may buy myself a raptor or AH-64-apache

[WABA]

i love the F-15 strike eagle and it will always be my favorite jet but this new F-35 raptor looks some serious hardware!!! i win the lottery i may buy myself a raptor or ah-apache

There is no siuch aircraft as the F35 Raptor.

The the latest 5th generation frontline aircraft for the USA airforce is the F22 Raptor.

This incredible stealth aircraft has no equal in air to air combat. It has the ability to totally eradicate any enemy aircraft from the sky before they knew what hit them.

The F35 Lightning is the latest fighter bomber being developted in Americain conjunction with many other countries.

It is very stealthy with an incrediblely advance weapons system.

America has stated it will NOT sell the F22 to any other country, but the F35 which is basically a replacementfor the older generation aircraft such as the F16 and the F18, will be sold to any American ally.
Waba

[ryanUK]

i,m still old school though where fighter jets/bombers are concerened,as i grew up watching/reading about F-15,s,F-14 tomcats,F-16,s, and panavia tornado,s,harriers etc i do love the old aircraft.I,ts a shame the F-14 was put out of service but thats change i suppose.

I want to see a better look though at the joint venture in europe,s new jet..the euro fighter typhoon.This looks an awesome aircraft and once they get over the huge demand of making them/distributing them into service,the RAF will have an aircraft to be proud of.

[mustangman65_79]

oops my mistake....lol....i put it like that as i was watching a documentary on discovery wings about the F22 raptor and it seems i was,nt concentrating...lol.

i,m still old school though where fighter jets/bombers are concerened,as i grew up watching/reading about F-15,s,F-14 tomcats,F-16,s, and panavia tornado,s,harriers etc i do love the old aircraft.I,ts a shame the F-14 was put out of service but thats change i suppose.

I want to see a better look though at the joint venture in europe,s new jet..the euro fighter typhoon.This looks an awesome aircraft and once they get over the huge demand of making them/distributing them into service,the RAF will have an aircraft to be proud of.

I too am old school, still love the old F-15

[ryanUK]

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/17/17_5_3.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZCxdm491MXGB) http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/989.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZCxdm491MXGB) I too am old school, still love the old F-15

Well i live near RAF lakenheath in suffolk england,which as you may know is the home of the 48th fighter wing and the F-15 E is based there,they used to do a 2 day airshow nearby at RAF mildenhall and one of the highlights was the pair of F-15,s on full afterburner etc and the sound is just better than sex lol!!!

it is a frightning piece of kit and the "no losses in combat" says it all.We had a pilot from the RAF recently attacjed to an F-15 unit in the usaf and he said "it,s simply better than anything i have ever flown and you don,t realise just how big these jets are till your near one"

[dzone]

There is no siuch aircraft as the F35 Raptor.

The the latest 5th generation frontline aircraft for the USA airforce is the F22 Raptor.

This incredible stealth aircraft has no equal in air to air combat. It has the ability to totally eradicate any enemy aircraft from the sky before they knew what hit them.

The F35 Lightning is the latest fighter bomber being developted in Americain conjunction with many other countries.

It is very stealthy with an incrediblely advance weapons system.

America has stated it will NOT sell the F22 to any other country, but the F35 which is basically a replacementfor the older generation aircraft such as the F16 and the F18, will be sold to any American ally.
Waba
I will try to be as much as realistic as i can even though i think that Russians have very good jets who can indeed compeet with Western jets !
It is true that non of Western countries exccept the US has stealth fighter such as Raptor but (there is always but isn't it?:rolleyes:) Russia has it's own stealth fighters such as Mig-39 with plasma stealth tech. as well as SU-47 and Japan is developing it's own XF-5. How can you claim that only American is the best?
For instance, in first days of 1999 bombing of Serbia, Serbian AA shut down F-177 with modified SA-3 who was made in 60s. There is other reference too, Israel is switcing M-16s and M4A1 to Tavor rifles, not to mension Patriot missailes who intersepted 48-49 Iraqi Scud missailes scoring 0 kills as Scud were still hitting Tel Aviv, because of that Israelis had to modified Patriots.

Also you can't say that if F-15 is good jet because it didn't have losses, what is his manuverbility, how many bombs can it carry, what is his radius, for what purpose he was made?etc....
F-35 might be a good chois but it doesn't mean it is the best, there are maybe better jets for less money, but politecs comes on the scene and everything stops there and for sure i would like Israel to have the best !

[ryanUK]

the British RAF are getting the F-35 soon to accompany the eurofighter typhoon,it,s good the RAF have understood the need for change.

[woodbine901]

f-35 its the lesser vstol version of the aircraft

[dzone]

the British RAF are getting the F-35 soon to accompany the eurofighter typhoon,it,s good the RAF have understood the need for change.
My mestake in previus post it was F-117A not F-177 !

F-35 will probably replace Sea Harrier !

[ryanUK]

My mestake in previus post it was F-117A not F-177 !

F-35 will probably replace Sea Harrier !
http://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/f35jointstrikefighter.cfm
check the link out,it is for the RAF page on it,it will replace the harriers as you say,the harrier was awesom during the 1982 falklands war with Argentina but it is an old old plane now.

[[MakkabI]]

I read somewhere in Haaretz, it says that Israel wants to buy 35 or more F-35 planes and 5 Herceles...

[[MakkabI]]

Israel to purchase dozens of stealth aircraft from US

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3546697,00.html

[[MakkabI]]

Israel asks U.S. for 25 F-35 warplanes, at $80 million a unit

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/986194.html

[joejd12]

;30777']Israel asks U.S. for 25 F-35 warplanes, at $80 million a unit

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/986194.html


i watched a show about future air power yesterday (of course the show was made at around 2002-2004 (dont know exactly when) and it stated that the f-35 will cost $40 million a unit and was meant to be the cheaper version of the f-22 (though they have different attack roles, f-35 is a second wave ground attack aircraft) which would cost $120 million...

just goes to show how off price estimates tend to be....

[jayboy]

My favourite is the saab jas39 gripen, saw at an airshow in England several years ago-awesome display, and cheaper than the f35! on display it wiped the floor with everything bar the su29

[haamimhagolan]

;30777']Israel asks U.S. for 25 F-35 warplanes, at $80 million a unit

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/986194.html

Just for reference, if we compare this announcement to the proposed Israeli procurement plans quoted last November, we will find that there has been no change in Israeli procurement plans:
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/01/11/220748/israel-to-boost-range-of-future-f-35-fleet.html

The plan remains to procure 100 F-35s over the next decade, in batches of 25 airplanes. As planned, the contract for the first batch should be signed sometime in 2009, with deliveries beginning in 2014.

[dzone]

Just for reference, if we compare this announcement to the proposed Israeli procurement plans quoted last November, we will find that there has been no change in Israeli procurement plans:
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/01/11/220748/israel-to-boost-range-of-future-f-35-fleet.html

The plan remains to procure 100 F-35s over the next decade, in batches of 25 airplanes. As planned, the contract for the first batch should be signed sometime in 2009, with deliveries beginning in 2014.
Israel should buy this, believe me !
http://www.aeronautics.ru/sukhoi/su27ib06.jpg

[HideNSeek]

Israel should buy this, believe me !
http://www.aeronautics.ru/sukhoi/su27ib06.jpg

SU-27 varients? Syria will buy them before Israel will.

[dzone]

SU-27 varients? Syria will buy them before Israel will.
Of course , that is why Israel should be worried about and by some as well, Russian weapons shownd that they are very reliable and effective at battelfields not only in the ME but in rest of the World !

[HideNSeek]

Of course , that is why Israel should be worried about and by some as well, Russian weapons shownd that they are very reliable and effective at battelfields not only in the ME but in rest of the World !

Well, their missiles (anti-tank etc), which was even the case back in 1967 etc proved effective (but really, today all anti-tank weapons are close to one another).I'm sure Israel would be concerned about the planes, but it would be nothing new as Syria always had the top line Soviet fighters.

[dzone]

Well, their missiles (anti-tank etc), which was even the case back in 1967 etc proved effective (but really, today all anti-tank weapons are close to one another).I'm sure Israel would be concerned about the planes, but it would be nothing new as Syria always had the top line Soviet fighters.
I didn't thought about anti tank missiles, but arms quality in general. Syria never had good pilots, but India does have and proved that Sukhoi jets were superior over US and the EU jet(s) (during war games in India) ready for take off.....
regards
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GdfnTLKcvM&feature=related

[joejd12]

I didn't thought about anti tank missiles, but arms quality in general. Syria never had good pilots, but India does have and proved that Sukhoi jets were superior over US and the EU jet(s) (during war games in India) ready for take off.....
regards
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GdfnTLKcvM&feature=related


i wouldnt be surprised if such wargames were simply staged/fixed to allow one country win over another....

israel won 220 out of 240 dogfights in wargames with US pilots, and while i do not doubt the quality of our air force men for even a split second, that ratio seems a bit over the top....

[HideNSeek]

I didn't thought about anti tank missiles, but arms quality in general. Syria never had good pilots, but India does have and proved that Sukhoi jets were superior over US and the EU jet(s) (during war games in India) ready for take off.....
regards
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GdfnTLKcvM&feature=related


I'm pretty sure I saw that on TV around 8 years ago (or similar clip).

But if your talking about the "games" like red flag, firstly they mean nearly nothing as its more political than anything else. Secondly, neither side employs all their potential technological advantages. Thirdly, I never actually saw the "official" results and the exact scenarios, its mostly rumors, and the airforces saying "they performed well".

Wars provides the only glimpse into reality, and In regards to the Indo-Pakistan conflict (1965), in the air was really the only place Pakistan could achieve parity with India (good luck finding unbiased results though).

I don't like wikipedia much, but it does have some good sources on the subject here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_warfare_in_1965_India_Pakistan_War

So while Soviet planes were well built, I can't say they were "superior" based on the results in most wars.

[dzone]

I'm pretty sure I saw that on TV around 8 years ago (or similar clip).

But if your talking about the "games" like red flag, firstly they mean nearly nothing as its more political than anything else. Secondly, neither side employs all their potential technological advantages. Thirdly, I never actually saw the "official" results and the exact scenarios, its mostly rumors, and the airforces saying "they performed well".

Wars provides the only glimpse into reality, and In regards to the Indo-Pakistan conflict (1965), in the air was really the only place Pakistan could achieve parity with India (good luck finding unbiased results though).

I don't like wikipedia much, but it does have some good sources on the subject here:

So while Soviet planes were well built, I can't say they were "superior" based on the results in most wars.
This is going nowhere i shouldn't start writing about my taste, this will end up nowhere........ It is right now Israeli interest to buy these jets sow on sow on....

[Darrell2Bears]

So many air forces are so dependent on the outcome of the F-35 program what is going to happen when/if the aircraft is not all that is promised?

[betgilson]

what is going to happen when/if the aircraft is not all that is promised?

why should the new F35 disappoint the customers?
It´s a logical thing...

the F35 joint all the best technologies applied in the last jets. This is know how from decades from the best technologie available in all directions.

no doubt that this fighter is going to be outstanding.

I guess , the Russian jets are the best machines and I KNOW the Israeli pilots are the Worlds best, no doubt.

Israeli+Russian jets? = fantastic
Israeli+US jets? = succesful

As Germany was reunified, as few Mig 29 were remaining from East Germany, Jets and weaponry , missiles air-air and so on.

The US and west military were shocked as they found out that the Russian air to air missiles were such superior than the US conter parts!

Nevertheless, the pilots are the most important element. Israelis will ever win, even with neshers/daggers!!:biggrin:

http://www.geocities.com/capecanaveral/hangar/2848/nesher.htm


Go Israel!

[SpacemanSpiff]

While I too am impressed by acrobatics and dogfight maneuvers of newer Russian planes, the primary threat to the Israeli airforce is SAM systems, not Arab pilots.

And here the F-35 excels. By virtue of its stealth, the F-35 will render even the newest Arab SAMs obsolete.

The F-35 is the right choice.

[betgilson]

That is.

[haamimhagolan]

Just to provide everyone with an update: The Israeli government has begun the long, laborious process of negotiating for what features Israel's F-35 fleet is expected to have. At the center of the debate is how readily the US government will allow Israel to integrate Israeli weapons and electronics into the F-35 systems architecture:
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/09/17/316071/israel-pushes-to-add-domestic-content-to-joint-strike.html

It should be expected that these negotiations will continue and expand over the course of the next year. The contract for first deliveries of the new fighter is expected to be signed in 2009, with deliveries as soon as 2014 (or even 2013 according to some published sources).

This is not a simple matter. In order for the Israeli manufacturers to readily integrate their weapons or avionics packages into the F-35, the US would have to share some of the source code that goes into the weapons management software. Otherwise, it would take much longer for the Israeli manufacturers to back-out the parameters that they need on their own.

[WABA]

While I too am impressed by acrobatics and dogfight maneuvers of newer Russian planes, the primary threat to the Israeli airforce is SAM systems, not Arab pilots.

And here the F-35 excels. By virtue of its stealth, the F-35 will render even the newest Arab SAMs obsolete.

The F-35 is the right choice.

You are totally correct in you assumptions SpacemanSpiff. The F35 is an incredible strike fighter.

While it is very impressive to watch the acrobatics of the latest Su27/35 fighters, it is worth noting these are done with the aircraft in a 'light' condition, and in the hands of the best Rusian test pilots, and these 'manouvers' have basically no relevence in combat situations.

At present if Syria managed to acquire the Su35 fighter from Russia, Israeli fighter pilots flying the present F15/F16 fighters would prevail.

When Israel gets F35 the outcome would be so predictible that it would be a very brave Syrian pilot flying a Su35 even to take off.

The F35 is that good.

Waba

[joejd12]

jsut an update....

the pentagon has officially signed a deal to sell israel 25 f-35's and an additional 50 with vertical landing+takeoff capability sometime in teh future.... reportedly the pentagon only agreed to sell israel the planes once it got assurances that the technology would not reach a third party (china? i know israel sells a lot of military technology to the chinese, is it possible the petnagon was worried israel would sell the technology to china?)...

this also ties back to another thread someone started a long time ago about how the idf decided to protect itself by buying vertical takeoff and landing planes instead of pre-emptively attacking the enemies supply of rockets and missiles which it is worried will be used against its airfields...

hebrew:
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3603974,00.html
http://debka.co.il/headline.php?hid=3355

english:
http://debka.com/headline.php?hid=5622
http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1025528.html (normally haaretz is completely biased and spreading the extreme left's message, not to mention the palestinians message, yet this article is purely informative and i couldnt find ynet's english version so ehre you go)

p.s.- sorry for spelling, i was in a hurry...

[[MakkabI]]

The Defense Department formally notified Congress that it wants to sell Israel as many as 75 of the latest-model fighter jet, which is being developed under a contract led by Lockheed Martin (http://online.wsj.com/public/quotes/main.html?symbol=lmt) Corp.

A sale could be worth as much as $15 billion. It would mark the first order from outside the original team of countries working on the jet, the F-35 Lightning II, also known as the Joint Strike Fighter.




http://s.wsj.net/public/resources/images/NA-AS874_FIGHTE_D_20080930165328.jpg Lockheed Martin Corporation The Defense Department wants to sell to Israel the F-35 Lightning II, a fighter jet being developed under a contract led by Lockheed Martin.






The aircraft is intended to replace an array of fighter and attack jets in the American arsenal. Many foreign buyers use those same planes and also are seeking to upgrade. Lockheed is the lead contractor, and the engines for the jets will come from either United Technologies (http://online.wsj.com/public/quotes/main.html?symbol=utx) Corp.'s Pratt & Whitney unit or General Electric (http://online.wsj.com/public/quotes/main.html?symbol=GE) Co.

According to the Pentagon, the F-35 program will cost almost $300 billion to develop and buy about 2,400 planes, including different versions of the aircraft for the Air Force, Navy and Marines.

Israel has indicated it wants at least 25 jets based on the Air Force version. It may buy an additional 50 jets, which could include a model being developed for the Marines that is capable of short takeoffs and vertical landings. The deal includes spare parts and services.

In its announcement, the Pentagon's Defense Security Cooperation Agency said it told Congress last week about the possible sale. For Israel, the agency said, the planes will "enhance its air-to-air and air-to-ground self-defense capacity." Such a deal won't "affect the basic military balance in the region," according to the agency.

The possible sale, which doesn't require congressional authorization, would be the culmination of years of Israeli interest in the jets.

A Lockheed spokesman said the sale "would be an important first step in expanding interest in the Joint Strike Fighter beyond the U.S. government and eight international F-35 partner nations."

Foreign sales of the F-35 are key for Lockheed and the Pentagon, which hopes to keep costs down by spreading them out over more planes. Eight U.S. allies, including the U.K. and Australia, are involved in developing the plane and likely will buy jets as well.

The U.S. is expected to get the first deliveries in 2010. Other countries would receive them in batches in subsequent years.

The announcement marks the latest in a series of significant U.S. arms sales to the region. Iraq is interested in advanced tanks, fighters and helicopters and has more than $10 billion of U.S. weapons deals lined up. The United Arab Emirates is set to get sophisticated antimissile systems worth more than $7 billion.

Lockheed stands to benefit from other potential sales to Israel. This summer, the U.S. said Israel wants to buy four advanced Lockheed warships, called the Littoral Combat Ship, designed for coastal operations. That deal could be worth as much as $1.9 billion to Lockheed, according to the Defense Security Cooperation Agency.

The longtime U.S. ally is also seeking to buy nine Lockheed C-130 transport planes and related items, worth $1.9 billion. Israel already flies F-16 fighters, which are made by Lockheed.



http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122280230252091369.html?mod=googlenews_wsj


and YNET English:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3603985,00.html

[haamimhagolan]

This announcement from the Pentagon is important, but it is also important to understand what has, and has not yet been agreed upon.

By making this announcement now, the Bush Administration is ensuring that a future (Obama) administration would have difficulty denying Israel access to this airplane. That reason alone would make this a significant event. Formal Congressional notification also allows the Israeli government to spend their annual Foreign Military Sales (FMS) credits on advance procurement of hardware for the F-35, beginning in 2009. In other words, it allows the Israeli government to spend US military aid towards making a downpayment on the airplanes during the next year, rather than absorbing the entire cost at the time of delivery. It also signals that the US and Israel have come to agreement regarding how to protect F-35 technology from reaching any third parties.

Congressional notification is not, however, the same thing as closing a deal for terms of a sale. There has been no contract signed with Lockheed Martin as of yet, and a great many details still need to be worked out. Central to these negotiations will undoubtedly be the mix of US and Israeli avionics the first batch of 25 aircraft will contain. Some sources in Israel have suggested that these first airplanes should contain little or no Israeli content, to help speed up the delivery process. Others have countered that Israel needs to be planning now for any unique sensors, countermeasures, or weapons packages they intend to eventually deploy. This Congressional notification also confirms that the Israelis will be the first export customer for the airplane. But the delivery contract - including the schedule for aircraft shipments - has not yet been signed.

Also, contrary to what DEBKAfile reported, the Israeli government has not yet confirmed the configuration of the follow-on batches of F-35 fighters. Every other news source, including Haaretz, appears to have gotten this one right. The Congressional notification includes an option to buy the F-35B model during follow-on purchases. It does not mean that the Israeli air force has already agreed to go that route. The F-35B model had to give up internal payload space, and fuel capacity, in order to make room for the lift fan. If Israel is primarily concerned about a wartime scenario that involves Iran, it is unlikely that they would be rushing to purchase a version with a shorter range, or with reduced payload.

Bearing in mind that the F-35 is still in the early stages of flight test, the Israelis are not expected to receive production deliveries of the F-35 before 2013. This is the earliest date that the Joint Strike Figher (JSF) was scheduled to be available for export (all prior deliveries were slated for the USAF, USMC or USN ). This would put deliveries to Israel ahead of such long-time JSF partners as Italy, Holland or Denmark, and most likely ahead of deliveries to the UK as well.

The British would likely be more than happy to have their own production deliveries delayed, both to alleviate their current budget crunch, and to allow time for the follow-on F136 engine (for which Rolls-Royce is a 40% partner) to catch up. If they're delivered early, the Israeli aircraft will by definition be equipped with the Pratt & Whitney F135 engine, which has powered all of the prototypes to date, and which will be production ready in 2009.

[haamimhagolan]

Attached is a link to the official Pentagon announcement, if anyone wants to compare the later media releases to the original.
http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2008/Israel_08-83.pdf

[joejd12]

haamimagolan, i understand what you are trying to say, but i personally cant find much of a difference between the press release and this, other than the fact that the press made it seem like it was carved in stone and the report sings to a different tune.

what really worries me about this report is the following statement:

"Israel will have no difficulty absorbing these aircraft into its armed forces. The proposed sale will not affect the basic military balance in the region."

this worries me for 2 reasons:

1) since when is the US worried about tipping the balance of power in teh region in israels favour!? the US is supposed to be our biggest ally, though things such as this make it seem like theyre also one of our biggest enemies at times....

2)i thought the f-35 was so advanced and capable that it would enhance israels air-to-air and air-to-ground considerably? if so, wouldnt that qualify as tipping the balance? or at least as tipping it even further into our side? (if anyone has knowledge of the f-35's capabilities, will it in fact make a difference and is it worth buying in your opinion?)

[haamimhagolan]

what really worries me about this report is the following statement:
"Israel will have no difficulty absorbing these aircraft into its armed forces. The proposed sale will not affect the basic military balance in the region."

This is standard diplomatic language, designed to minimize debate on the Senate floor - and also prevent the Saudis and others from insisting that the F-35 will give the Israelis an unfair advantage. The fewer waves that they can create with this announcement, the more likely it will be that they can resist pressure to sell the F-35 to Israel's neighbors.

The reality is that the F-35 will greatly enhance Israel's abilities to penetrate enemy airspace undetected. Bear in mind, however, that the F-35 is a multirole fighter with an emphasis on its strike capabilies. Its low radar signature is certainly of advantage in engaging opposing fighters, and it will have a sensor suite that will be unrivaled by anything that Israel might have to face in the foreseeable future. The F-35 is not, however, the kind of dedicated air-to-air asset that the F-22 represents. In terms of its close-quarters agility, the F-35 should have performance that slightly exceeds that of today's Block 52+ F-16s. It will not be in the same category as the Eurofighter Typhoon or Dassault Rafale in terms of pure agility, however. It will have to rely on stealth and sensors were it called upon to engage Saudi Arabia's fleet of Typhoons, for example. In a visual range engagement, the Typhoon will still have a superior thrust-to-weight ratio and lower wing loading.

Given the choice, the Heyl HaAvir has already made it clear that they would prefer to purchase the F-22 immediately, and invest in the F-35 further down the road. That option has not been given to them, however.

[joejd12]

This is standard diplomatic language, designed to minimize debate on the Senate floor - and also prevent the Saudis and others from insisting that the F-35 will give the Israelis an unfair advantage. The fewer waves that they can create with this announcement, the more likely it will be that they can resist pressure to sell the F-35 to Israel's neighbors.

The reality is that the F-35 will greatly enhance Israel's abilities to penetrate enemy airspace undetected. Bear in mind, however, that the F-35 is a multirole fighter with an emphasis on its strike capabilies. Its low radar signature is certainly of advantage in engaging opposing fighters, and it will have a sensor suite that will be unrivaled by anything that Israel might have to face in the foreseeable future. The F-35 is not, however, the kind of dedicated air-to-air asset that the F-22 represents. In terms of its close-quarters agility, the F-35 should have performance that slightly exceeds that of today's Block 52+ F-16s. It will not be in the same category as the Eurofighter Typhoon or Dassault Rafale in terms of pure agility, however. It will have to rely on stealth and sensors were it called upon to engage Saudi Arabia's fleet of Typhoons, for example. In a visual range engagement, the Typhoon will still have a superior thrust-to-weight ratio and lower wing loading.

Given the choice, the Heyl HaAvir has already made it clear that they would prefer to purchase the F-22 immediately, and invest in the F-35 further down the road. That option has not been given to them, however.


ok that clears it up a bit, im still young so im not used to all this diplomatic language.... :pat:

i figured there was something wrong with that statement, because i was also aware of te f-35's stealth capabilities, from what i know theyre advanced though not enough to ensure invisibility like the f-22 can, is this right?

i also thought that the f-35 was intended to be the 2nd wave of an assault, primarily being a bomber and letting the f-22's in the first wave take out any fighters...?

[haamimhagolan]

i figured there was something wrong with that statement, because i was also aware of te f-35's stealth capabilities, from what i know theyre advanced though not enough to ensure invisibility like the f-22 can, is this right?

The radar signature for the F-35 should be on the same order as the F-22. Both of them are beyond the ability of existing radars to detect within a useful range. By the time that an opposing aircraft know that they are there, they will already have launched their BVR weapons.

This will be a phase change for Israeli air combat doctrine. Israeli doctrine has emphasized the visual range scenario for a long time. I am aware of only two BVR kills in the history of the Heyl HaAvir. US doctrine has emphasized beyond visual range intercepts for decades, although they did not score any meaningful success on the battlefield with this doctrine until 1991 - in the first Gulf War.

i also thought that the f-35 was intended to be the 2nd wave of an assault, primarily being a bomber and letting the f-22's in the first wave take out any fighters...?

In US service, the F-22 will be tasked as the primary air superiority weapon, and the F-35 will be assigned to the air-to-ground roles.

It is not as simple as thinking of the air-to-ground mission as being a "2nd wave" however. Only in hollywood does the air-to-air mission play the dominant role. Wars are won or lost by boots on the ground, and ordnance on target. In most real world applications, the strike fighters will want to hit their targets first, to achieve maximum surprise. Where surprise is not possible, the two missions will have to be carried out in parallel, not tandem.

[WABA]

Norway Picking F-35 Over Gripen NG

Nov 20, 2008

Robert Wall/Paris and Graham Warwick/Washington



http://www.aviationweek.com/media/images/defense_images/Fighters/F35tightShotOfNose-DOD.jpg

Norway's defense ministry has opted for the Lockheed Martin-led F-35 as its future fighter over the Saab Gripen Next Generation.

The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter was the front runner in many respects with Norway having spent money on the fighter's development phase, but the country also made a smaller investment in the competitor. Saab, backed by the Swedish government, was mounting a big challenge and offered generous workshare. In fact, a group of Norwegian industrialists indicated they preferred the Gripen NG. The Eurofighter Typhoon withdrew from the competition some time ago.

The government statement Nov. 20 announcing the ministry's recommendation suggests the F-35 won soundly. "The Joint Strike Fighter is considered to be the better of the two candidates regarding intelligence and surveillance, counter-air, air interdict and anti-surface warfare," defense minister Anne-Grete Strýým-Erichsen says. Both candidates would have been acceptable, the government adds.

The decision is a setback for Saab, which was hoping to make Norway the launch customer for the Gripen NG. The next big test comes next year in Brazil where its competitors are the Dassault Rafale and Boeing F/A-18E/F.

"I'm disappointed and surprised about the Norwegian Governments decision, because Gripen fulfills all the operational requirements, to a fixed and known price. In addition to this, we have offered a wide and strong industrial cooperation package," says Saab chief executive Ake Svensson.

For Lockheed Martin it's a big win, in part because Norway is replacing its F-16s. But it also gives the F-35 the first win in a hotly contested international competition.

Norway is looking to buy 48 aircraft and hopes to start fielding them around 2014.

In a roundtable discussion this week with Aviation Week, U.S. Air Force Maj. Gen. Charles Davis, Joint Strike Fighter program executive officer, predicted Norway and Denmark would both eventually side with the JSF.

He cited the aircraft's expected capabilities and unique cohesion that it is supposed to foster with other western allies as major selling points for the JSF. "All of them will say yes in the long run," Davis said.

Photo: U.S. Defense Department
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[HideNSeek]

Norway Picking F-35 Over Gripen NG

Nov 20, 2008

Robert Wall/Paris and Graham Warwick/Washington



http://www.aviationweek.com/media/images/defense_images/Fighters/F35tightShotOfNose-DOD.jpg

Norway's defense ministry has opted for the Lockheed Martin-led F-35 as its future fighter over the Saab Gripen Next Generation.

The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter was the front runner in many respects with Norway having spent money on the fighter's development phase, but the country also made a smaller investment in the competitor. Saab, backed by the Swedish government, was mounting a big challenge and offered generous workshare. In fact, a group of Norwegian industrialists indicated they preferred the Gripen NG. The Eurofighter Typhoon withdrew from the competition some time ago.

The government statement Nov. 20 announcing the ministry's recommendation suggests the F-35 won soundly. "The Joint Strike Fighter is considered to be the better of the two candidates regarding intelligence and surveillance, counter-air, air interdict and anti-surface warfare," defense minister Anne-Grete Strýým-Erichsen says. Both candidates would have been acceptable, the government adds.

The decision is a setback for Saab, which was hoping to make Norway the launch customer for the Gripen NG. The next big test comes next year in Brazil where its competitors are the Dassault Rafale and Boeing F/A-18E/F.

"I'm disappointed and surprised about the Norwegian Governments decision, because Gripen fulfills all the operational requirements, to a fixed and known price. In addition to this, we have offered a wide and strong industrial cooperation package," says Saab chief executive Ake Svensson.

For Lockheed Martin it's a big win, in part because Norway is replacing its F-16s. But it also gives the F-35 the first win in a hotly contested international competition.

Norway is looking to buy 48 aircraft and hopes to start fielding them around 2014.

In a roundtable discussion this week with Aviation Week, U.S. Air Force Maj. Gen. Charles Davis, Joint Strike Fighter program executive officer, predicted Norway and Denmark would both eventually side with the JSF.

He cited the aircraft's expected capabilities and unique cohesion that it is supposed to foster with other western allies as major selling points for the JSF. "All of them will say yes in the long run," Davis said.

Photo: U.S. Defense Department
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Yes, kind of surprised, but than again, Norway sunk millions into the project, would be really a bad message if they didn't buy the aircraft. Also, I don't see the price of each unit. But the fact that Gripen was even in the picture (Eurofighter Typhoon withdrew) after Norway was part of the F-35 program still makes me wonder.

Can't help but smile when I hear about the F-35's "expected capabilities", its like a marketing campaign and everyone is bidding on a box, and no one is really sure what's inside.

[WABA]

Can't help but smile when I hear about the F-35's "expected capabilities", its like a marketing campaign and everyone is bidding on a box, and no one is really sure what's inside.

__________________________________________________ ______________________

I can understand were you are comung from with all the glossy video's put out by all aircraft manufactors trying to sell the latest and greatest fighter/bomber.

However ALL aircraft obey the laws of physics, and ALL pilots have the same physical limitations in combat manouvers.

It will be the 'electrics' that will be the deciding factor in who will win in combat and return the pilot and plane safely back home.

The F35 is going to be VERY good at this.

The below is and overview of why the RAAF chose the F35.

They don't even look at the marketing glossy's.


November 21, 2008 - 10:50PM

The new Lockheed F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) is exactly what Australia needs and there are no concerns at all that it won't perform properly, the Defence Force chief says.

Defence head Air Chief Marshal Angus Houston said on Friday that the JSF would dominate the skies, perform close air support for troops on the ground, as well as strike maritime targets.

"Performance is fabulous. It is exactly what we need. There are no performance concerns about the JSF in the Australian Defence Force, in the air force, indeed anywhere," he told reporters.

"It will be a very capable aircraft which will give us exactly what we need."

JSF has been strongly criticised by a number of analysts on the grounds it would be inferior to Russian-built combat aircraft now entering service across the region.

Australia is set to buy up to 100 JSF aircraft to replace ageing F/A-18 Hornet fighters and F-111 strike bombers from the middle of next decade at a cost of up to $16 billion.

However, Australia is yet to sign a contract.

Acquisition of the JSF will likely get the go-ahead in the upcoming Defence white paper, set for release in March or April next year.

The government would then give formal approval in June and place an order in August.

Australia would receive its first JSF in 2014 with the first squadron operational in 2015. JSF remains under development and so far just two test aircraft have flown.

Air Chief Marshal Houston said Lockheed had learned much from its development of the F-22 Raptor fighter.

He said the company had also gone to considerable effort to reduce the risks associated with developing aircraft electronic systems.

"The whole approach in the JSF is very innovative and takes full account of the lessons learned from the F-22 program," he said.

© 2008 AAP (http://news.theage.com.au/action/displayCopyrightNotice?sourceOrganisation=AAP)

(Actually I think Australia is initially looking at 75 F35's, at about a similar price to the one offered to Israel. )

Waba

[HideNSeek]

Can't help but smile when I hear about the F-35's "expected capabilities", its like a marketing campaign and everyone is bidding on a box, and no one is really sure what's inside.

__________________________________________________ ______________________

I can understand were you are comung from with all the glossy video's put out by all aircraft manufactors trying to sell the latest and greatest fighter/bomber.

However ALL aircraft obey the laws of physics, and ALL pilots have the same physical limitations in combat manouvers.

It will be the 'electrics' that will be the deciding factor in who will win in combat and return the pilot and plane safely back home.

The F35 is going to be VERY good at this.

The below is and overview of why the RAAF chose the F35.

They don't even look at the marketing glossy's.


November 21, 2008 - 10:50PM

The new Lockheed F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) is exactly what Australia needs and there are no concerns at all that it won't perform properly, the Defence Force chief says.

Defence head Air Chief Marshal Angus Houston said on Friday that the JSF would dominate the skies, perform close air support for troops on the ground, as well as strike maritime targets.

"Performance is fabulous. It is exactly what we need. There are no performance concerns about the JSF in the Australian Defence Force, in the air force, indeed anywhere," he told reporters.

"It will be a very capable aircraft which will give us exactly what we need."

JSF has been strongly criticised by a number of analysts on the grounds it would be inferior to Russian-built combat aircraft now entering service across the region.

Australia is set to buy up to 100 JSF aircraft to replace ageing F/A-18 Hornet fighters and F-111 strike bombers from the middle of next decade at a cost of up to $16 billion.

However, Australia is yet to sign a contract.

Acquisition of the JSF will likely get the go-ahead in the upcoming Defence white paper, set for release in March or April next year.

The government would then give formal approval in June and place an order in August.

Australia would receive its first JSF in 2014 with the first squadron operational in 2015. JSF remains under development and so far just two test aircraft have flown.

Air Chief Marshal Houston said Lockheed had learned much from its development of the F-22 Raptor fighter.

He said the company had also gone to considerable effort to reduce the risks associated with developing aircraft electronic systems.

"The whole approach in the JSF is very innovative and takes full account of the lessons learned from the F-22 program," he said.

© 2008 AAP (http://news.theage.com.au/action/displayCopyrightNotice?sourceOrganisation=AAP)

(Actually I think Australia is initially looking at 75 F35's, at about a similar price to the one offered to Israel. )

Waba

I actually looked it up, and by some magical force, the F-35 will actually be cheaper than the Gripen package offered (at least thats what I heard) how? I have no idea, probably has to do with offsets or some industrial incentives.

About the F-35? Well, its a long time till 2014-2016, so really, I want to see what's out there by that time. Time will tell if the F-35 was worth it.

[HideNSeek]

Development and testing costs for the F-35 joint strike fighter could soar dramatically higher than Defense Department officials expect, a defense trade publication reported Wednesday.

An independent team of Pentagon cost analysts has concluded that completing development and testing of the next-generation Lockheed Martin-built F-35 Lightning II will take two years longer and cost $15 billion more than estimated, according to the report by Inside the Air Force.

Senior Pentagon leaders, at the direction of Deputy Defense Secretary Gordon England, have elected to largely disregard the report for now and hope that the more optimistic projections of program managers and Lockheed officials can be met, the publication reported.

The Pentagon will add $480 million to the F-35 testing budget for 2010 but is not planning to add development funds in future years.

Adding funds in 2010 "is extremely prudent," John Young, defense undersecretary for acquisition, told Inside the Air Force.

Young said Pentagon leaders, including England and Defense Secretary Robert Gates, were forced to choose between two widely divergent views of likely F-35 development progress and costs.

The independent team said it based its estimate on experience with other aircraft-development programs. The lower estimate was developed by the Pentagon’s in-house program managers.

Lockheed said in a statement that the internal Pentagon estimate "is overly conservative," based on progress and data so far.

"While some [development] budget challenges remain, we are confident that we will complete the program at a far lower cost than forecast" by the Pentagon cost estimators, the statement said.

If the development costs soar, it will force the Pentagon as part of the Obama administration to make a choice to delay production and shift money to development or to add funds, which would likely lead to cuts in other high-profile weapons programs.


http://www.star-telegram.com/100/story/1062133.html

[WABA]

As more information gets out into the public domain on the awesome sensory capabilities of the F35, it will become more apparent why it is the perfect replacement for the legacy F16's/F18's/Tornado's, etc in Western airforces.

If Iasrael acquires the F35 before the Iranian's cobble together atomic weapons, Israel will have the perfect aircraft to attack Iran' atomic facilitaties and most important bring their pilots safely back home.

Countries using Eastern bloc aircraft/missiles and electronic defence systems won't know what hit them.


http://www.livescience.com/technology/081107-f-35-fighter-jets.html