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Debate Social & Political Issues Debate Social and political discussion about Israel/Palestinians, the Middle east or world politics.

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  #1  
Old 05-21-2009, 03:26 PM
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Default The Pro-Palestinian Libereal

I didn't see any coverage of this issue in other threads, so sorry if this post is redundant.

There is something about the global opinion of Israel that just boggles my mind. I have always considered myself to be quite liberal; I support abortion, gay marriage, and the environment, and I hate big oil, corporate interests, and Dick Cheney. So why is it that I suddenly find myself totally at odds with a group of people I have always identified with? How can these college kids and professors, who value personal freedom and human rights above all else, support a group of brainwashed, chauvinist religious fanatics who would cheerfully murder a couple of homosexuals, or topless European girl on the beach, over a struggling country that is a welcoming home to people with diverse ideals and lifestyles? Every single liberal media source (from the large and accepted ones like Greenpeace, BBC, and Amnesty International, to the smaller underground ones) have adopted a blatantly anti-Israel stance. I just wondered if anyone had any possible explanations for this perplexing phenomenon.

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Old 05-21-2009, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by headedforhell View Post
I didn't see any coverage of this issue in other threads, so sorry if this post is redundant.

There is something about the global opinion of Israel that just boggles my mind. I have always considered myself to be quite liberal; I support abortion, gay marriage, and the environment, and I hate big oil, corporate interests, and Dick Cheney. So why is it that I suddenly find myself totally at odds with a group of people I have always identified with? How can these college kids and professors, who value personal freedom and human rights above all else, support a group of brainwashed, chauvinist religious fanatics who would cheerfully murder a couple of homosexuals, or topless European girl on the beach, over a struggling country that is a welcoming home to people with diverse ideals and lifestyles? Every single liberal media source (from the large and accepted ones like Greenpeace, BBC, and Amnesty International, to the smaller underground ones) have adopted a blatantly anti-Israel stance. I just wondered if anyone had any possible explanations for this perplexing phenomenon.
A single, yet complex topic, provides an explanation for the paradox you note:

Anti-Semitism; the Left is corrupted by it.

http://74.125.45.132/search?q=cache:http://www.carolineglick.com/e/2009/03/are_you_proud_to_be_a_leftist.asp

http://www.frontpagemagazine.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=20927
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Old 05-21-2009, 05:18 PM
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For a start Read:

http://gaycitynews.com/site/news.cfm...d=568864&rfi=6

http://www.gaypatriot.net/category/gays-in-other-lands/

http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/bibli...atch=h&ymal=pp
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Old 05-21-2009, 06:02 PM
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I like Dick Cheney. hehe. I dont hate Liberals, I do find some things I agree withthem. However I'm more to the right than left. The Dick Cheney thing makes it obvious rofl.

Liberals tend to hate the right so much, they feel they and the islamists have something in common, it helps them get along, birds of the same feather flock together, except liberals with brains that is...lol.
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Old 05-21-2009, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by headedforhell View Post
... So why is it that I suddenly find myself totally at odds with a group of people I have always identified with? How can these college kids and professors, who value personal freedom and human rights above all else, ...
These may value their own "personal freedom and human rights above all else"
yet they want to curtail the rights of those with opposing views, or those who show the hypocrisy of those leftist views. Maybe if the above group would quit running around attempting to coerce a totally inept and corrupt government to lead the way in doing their bidding, then they would not be viewed as the spearheads in the new American tyranny. Now that the American socialist left is turning anti-Semitic, some American Jews are realizing the enigma of the new American socialism. American socialism has always 'eaten' its own. That was the stark truth that David Horowitz (who was raised as a hard leftist) realized, and that is why he shunned the movement years ago. He was once their poster boy and most eloquent defender, and now he has become their most ardent opponent. What is the main indictment against the American left and world socialism in general??? They lack true altruistic intent and practice!!! BS and empty rhetoric are cheap imitations that tickle the ears of the lemmings, and sooth the shallow consciences of the lefts arrogant wealthy and the lefts 'highly educated.' This is the lamentable state of government in the US today. Both parties have sold the US out; each side just attracts a different group of lemmings. True freedom is freedom from government corruption and the bad laws that are passed to assuage their major benefactors, corporations, and money lenders!!! Friends like the "O" administration are not needed by Israel and run contrary to its security concerns as well as those in the US that support Israel.
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Old 05-22-2009, 07:20 PM
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Lightbulb Can Muslims and Gays Coexist in Europe?




In While Europe Slept, American Bruce Bawer describes how he moved to the Netherlands because of its vaunted tolerance for alternative lifestyles, only to find Islamist gangs attacking gays on Amsterdam streets. Three years after the book's publication, new evidence illuminates European Muslims' attitudes toward homosexuality and the challenges they pose.

A survey by Dalia Mogahed's Gallup Center for Muslim Studies asked Muslims and non-Muslims in Britain, France, and Germany about their views on a number of issues, including whether they believe that homosexual acts are "morally acceptable or morally wrong":
The French public is more likely than any other population polled to view homosexuality (78%) as morally acceptable. As points of comparison, 68% of Germans and 58% of Britons believe homosexuality is morally acceptable. Among European Muslim populations surveyed, the acceptability of homosexuality is highest among French Muslims (35%) and lowest among British Muslims (0%).
The uniformity of the UK sample does stand out; has there ever been a poll in which everyone offered the same opinion on a controversial topic? However, the finding that Muslims are more critical than their non-Muslim counterparts is no surprise. Nor is it a grave concern on its own. Believing that others suffer punishment in the afterlife is very different than sending them there to face it. The problem is that, rather than "loving the sinner and hating the sin," some Muslim preachers cross the line by failing to condemn violence against gays — or even promoting it.

For example, Bawer notes that in November 2007, "the deputy chairman of Norway's Islamic Council, Asghar Ali, refused to reject the death penalty for gays. When Senaid Kobilica, the head of the Islamic Council (which represents 60,000 Muslims), was asked where he stood on the question, he replied that he couldn't give a definitive answer until he got a ruling from the European Fatwa Council." Nine months later he was still waiting.

In addition, there have been explicit justifications of violence against gays across Europe, including the UK. During a 2008 investigation of British mosques, "a female reporter infiltrated women's study circles. In one, a preacher using the name Umm Amira told followers: 'We are not going to be like animals … or to be like the homosexuals, God save us from that, you understand? We have to take the judgment; the judgment is to kill them.'" Extremist cleric Anjem Choudary also voiced support for the stoning of homosexuals in March 2009.

Islamic leaders who excuse or even advocate anti-gay violence can turn Muslims' negative views of homosexuals, as documented by the Gallup survey, into a powder keg. It is these radical imams whom European governments must target. Are they ready and willing to do so? Bruce Bawer provides this discomfiting clue: the aforementioned Asghar Ali, who could not bring himself to renounce the execution of gays, sat "on the board of … the largest and most influential association within Norway's ruling Labor Party."
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Old 05-22-2009, 08:11 PM
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The Western world is politically correcting itself to death. Most of us are conditioned from a young age to be tolerant of the races, customs, and lifestyle preferences of others. So, as a whole, we were very careful to make Muslim immigrants to our Western countries feel welcome, and to give them an equal voice in shaping policy and influencing our social infrastructures. I'm starting to think we were a bit too tolerant. What gives these people the right to come into our world, and try and turn it into their world? Israel is the last bastion of hope.
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Old 05-22-2009, 09:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by headedforhell View Post
The Western world is politically correcting itself to death. Most of us are conditioned from a young age to be tolerant of the races, customs, and lifestyle preferences of others. So, as a whole, we were very careful to make Muslim immigrants to our Western countries feel welcome, and to give them an equal voice in shaping policy and influencing our social infrastructures. I'm starting to think we were a bit too tolerant. What gives these people the right to come into our world, and try and turn it into their world? Israel is the last bastion of hope.

Good post. As for their right to impose their way of life, they are simply practicing their religion, sort of like good Germans during WWII.
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Old 05-22-2009, 09:28 PM
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Good post. As for their right to impose their way of life, they are simply practicing their religion, sort of like good Germans during WWII.
Yeah: sort of an current-day Arab version of lebensraum, right?
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Old 05-22-2009, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by headedforhell View Post
The Western world is politically correcting itself to death. Most of us are conditioned from a young age to be tolerant of the races, customs, and lifestyle preferences of others. So, as a whole, we were very careful to make Muslim immigrants to our Western countries feel welcome, and to give them an equal voice in shaping policy and influencing our social infrastructures. I'm starting to think we were a bit too tolerant. What gives these people the right to come into our world, and try and turn it into their world? Israel is the last bastion of hope.

I wouldnt say too tolerant, no one can be too tolerant, the west still has a long way to go, when it comes to tolerance, even if the things that they are tolerant about would make our grandmas roll in their graves lol.

I would say the west has been too naive and mis-informed. People still live in a "village" the outside world is still uknown. Most Americans have learnt about Sunni and Shias thanks to the war in Iraq, before that very few knew about this division in Islam. Just an example.
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Old 05-23-2009, 12:21 AM
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Yeah: sort of an current-day Arab version of lebensraum, right?

Yes; exactly!
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Old 05-23-2009, 01:52 AM
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headedforhell:

Agree with you mostly. I consider myself an FDR/Truman/JFK Democrat, and wonder where everybody has gone. Well, at least there is Joe Lieberman.

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I wouldnt say too tolerant, no one can be too tolerant, the west still has a long way to go, when it comes to tolerance, even if the things that they are tolerant about would make our grandmas roll in their graves lol.
Agree here too. I don't consider the West "too tolerant", but rather cowards lacking any backbone with regard to confronting true evil.
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Old 05-25-2009, 12:31 AM
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I like Dick Cheney. hehe. I dont hate Liberals, I do find some things I agree withthem. However I'm more to the right than left. The Dick Cheney thing makes it obvious rofl.

Liberals tend to hate the right so much, they feel they and the islamists have something in common, it helps them get along, birds of the same feather flock together, except liberals with brains that is...lol.
Thought this was a rather interesting column considering it appeared in one of NY's most liberal rags these days, the New York Daily News:

Obama gets schooled on terror: Cheney bests him in speech duel — by sticking to the facts

Sunday, May 24th 2009, 4:00 AM

It was a tale of two speeches. One was clear, direct and powerful. Barack Obama gave the other speech.
It would have been heresy to write those words any other time, so commanding has President Obama been with the spoken word. But the real Mission Impossible was to imagine that wheezy old Dick Cheney would be the speaker to best Obama

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2009/05/24/2009-05-24_obama_gets_schooled_on_terror_cheney_bests_him_ in_speech_duel__by_sticking_to_th.html#ixzz0GTOimF Vg&B
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Old 05-25-2009, 02:21 AM
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While I dont approve of all Dick Cheney does, he Dick Cheney is a patriot that atleast I am sure of! Thanks scelli for that post.
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Old 05-25-2009, 02:33 AM
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While I dont approve of all Dick Cheney does, he Dick Cheney is a patriot that atleast I am sure of! Thanks scelli for that post.
You're welcome...and concur with those sentiments regarding Cheney. I myself had some real issues regarding certain policies within both Bush administrations. That's for another day and time, though!
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Old 05-25-2009, 05:21 AM
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headedforhell:

Agree with you mostly. I consider myself an FDR/Truman/JFK Democrat, and wonder where everybody has gone...
It's always difficult to separate the private life of an elected official from the public job he or she has been mandated to do by popular vote of the people. I happen to be an FDR/Truman Republican and those are actually two Democrats who would definitely have gotten my vote if I'd been living during the era they governed. Last night, it was stated by me to someone (as I've done numerous times in the past) that I consider Franklin Delano Roosevelt to be the finest President this republic has ever had. He was a master politician without any doubt whatsoever and certainly acted like such at times, and so did Harry Truman. However, what they both accomplished for the nation in times of severe economic depression and unparallelled world peril can never be diminished. I'm sure others may disagree, but that's my opinion and stand by it.

Can't say the same for JFK. Although I admired the way he conducted himself during the Cuban missile crisis, there's simply too much baggage that has surfaced regarding questionable political decisions and actions before assuming the Presidency and which continued while in office. I also have real problems with the way the man has been practically deified since his assassination. I honestly believe historians need to take a few steps back and present more objective evaluations of the entire Kennedy administration minus all the usual accompanying rampant sentimentality and hero worship.
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Old 05-25-2009, 05:44 AM
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Scelli:

That OK, I agree that JFK had numerable character flaws. I was only trying to make the point that at one time Democrats didn't hesitate to protect the country.
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Old 05-25-2009, 11:39 AM
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I agree that back in the day, Democrats didnt hesitate to defend their country. FDR and Truman as stated by scelli are my favorites as well, and yes scelli they did save America in that era of economic deppression. It was a horrible period in America, and FDR did what he had too, and succeded. People were skeptikal of him and some big business leaders even tried to mount a coup against him, but the US Military officials that were contacted to help with the coup refused to go against the Republic and democracy!

JFK unlike todays dems would have also gone to war against the Islamo-facists had he been here today, while I too think he accomplished much less than is over portrayed of him, he still did his part to stand against the Russians who were bent on weakening America, something todays Democrats need to learn. When some nation out there is trying to weaken your country you dont smile and pat them on the back! You take them by the neck and slam them against the wall, like a good WWF wrestler does lol. But sadly it looks like the Pelosi-Bama-Biden trio have chosen appeasemnt instead.

On another note, I met an american man yesterday, and I made a comment praisng US Troops for memorial day. He answered by saying "I don't honor dead soldiers who have never fought for my freedom, except during the civil war"
there is another view of many Liberals, they seem to hate their country.

I told this brainless creep: Someone as unpatriotic as you are, has nothing to say concerning the troops!
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Old 05-25-2009, 03:59 PM
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... snip ...

On another note, I met an american man yesterday, and I made a comment praisng US Troops for memorial day. He answered by saying "I don't honor dead soldiers who have never fought for my freedom, except during the civil war"
there is another view of many Liberals, they seem to hate their country.

I told this brainless creep: Someone as unpatriotic as you are, has nothing to say concerning the troops!
Only a Communist could say something so utterly inane. I hate Communists!
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Old 05-25-2009, 04:08 PM
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Only a Communist could say something so utterly inane. I hate Communists!
I will probably get myself in trouble for this, but . . .

Actually, I have a reasonable amount of respect for Russian communists. Yeah, sure they were the enemy. But I did respect them as worthy adversaries. (I mean, at least no Russian was dumb enough to think that he'd get 72 virgins . . . ) And they had no qualms about defending their country.

Now, as regards American communists, they are just a bunch of traitorous idiots.
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