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View Poll Results: Romney or Obama? Who do you support.
Mitt Romney 18 94.74%
Barack Hussein Obama 1 5.26%
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  #41  
Old 11-03-2012, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David of Galilee View Post

It would be interesting to see a presidential race with a slate of well-known, popular candidates with long histories of public service, elective office or otherwise, whose positions are familiar to the general public. A situation in which different people have a candidate who is exactly their choice, and not a "ma she'yesh" or "that's what's available" candidate.

.
Guess what, MANY of those who first ran for office were exactly that kind of person when they were first elected. Like all human beings, once in position of power they changed very fast. Not all, were as you said "what we had to do with" If all congress men were rich folk like Romney, they wouldnt get elected. Many are the normal guy who struggled to get where they are. Once in power they dont shine like they used to.

As someone told me once, give the poor guy money and power and he who used to complain about inequality, will soon walk on the poor. Yes the systems that exist are unfair, because human beings lack one thing: SPIRITUALITY.

Humans can keep trying to look for solutions, they wont find because they arent awakening their spiritual side.

Capitalism actually is the most "just" system for the level of mankind at this time. Ofcourse it is a very unjust system, but it almost goes with how people are, and changing it normally means millions more will begin to suffer. Thats why socialist, communist systems failed. All those systems have great things in them, some that we use even in democracies today. Other things that allowed more people to eat, than in capitalist countries. However the people and those governments were both so selfish, that no matter how cheap, how well distributed the food, the housing was, it crumbled.

For example if the USSR spent less money, finding ways to destroy America, the communist power might still have been alive and well there. Thank goodness it wasnt because with that system you can say bye bye to liberty of expression and stuff like the internet!

Again a reflection of human kind.

The day humans become true saints, we wont need money, politicians or a fake United Nations. The world will be united and full of love and stuff.

Now I sound almost like a darn hippy.
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  #42  
Old 11-03-2012, 06:12 PM
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At three days to the election, if the election were to be held by our fine members, Romney would be a clear winner! Haha!
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  #43  
Old 11-03-2012, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by David of Galilee View Post

I'd bet that Wall Street bankers will be invited into the White House to give advice and lobby under either man
That would inevitably lead to disaster I believe, Wall Street bankers have hardly proven to be most prudent in the past.

[quote]Or maybe the classic definitions of conservative and liberal have morphed so much since my old university days, that I just don't see what Americans are seeing.[/QUOTE

Agreed, when I studied in college espoused what is called "conservatism" in American parlance to be classical liberalism.
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  #44  
Old 11-03-2012, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by David of Galilee View Post
No one is evil or immoral just because they are rich, but being part of a wealthy minority does tend to make a very high proportion of richer classes unaware of the struggles of the average, hard-working man and woman. There is a reason for that famous Christian NT belief, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."
Perhaps so, but its hardly a disadvantage, after all, being poor is not a virtue and can arise through lack of trying as well.

Quote:
Capitalism has allowed many people in many parts of the world to become wealthy without following ethical practices or moral personal behaviour. Some few may manage to keep their sense of right and wrong, of fair play, while amassing fortunes, but in the history of this world it is not something that happens very often.
However, the same can be said of any system. Am sure you'd agree it is much preferable in practice to the alternatives.

Quote:
It would be interesting to see a presidential race with a slate of well-known, popular candidates with long histories of public service, elective office or otherwise, whose positions are familiar to the general public. A situation in which different people have a candidate who is exactly their choice, and not a "ma she'yesh" or "that's what's available" candidate.
I could have rolled with Bobby Jindal on that one.

Although of course I'v always been keen on Jeb for Pres
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At that time, I will search out and destroy all of the nations who have come against Jerusalem - Zechariah 12:9
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  #45  
Old 11-04-2012, 07:18 PM
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Somewhere between John Maynard Keynes and Fred Walton I lost all faith in capitalism. Higher ideals ought to shape a society than financial ones. Economic ideas are fine as a subordinate part of an ethically based society, but economics is a tail that should not wag the dog. Yes, the economy is very important, but materialism should not be thought of as the basis of society--that's too Marxist for me! Just as it is natural and not at all evil for a man to have an appetite for his daily food, yet it is damn awkward for a man to live by his appetites, and be dominated by them. If modern rapacious capitalism is destroying the souls of men, and ruining nations, then it is possibly not even the best of a bad lot of ideas.

My idea of an alternative to capitalism and rich men ruling the roost is more of a Torah patriarchal concept of stewardship. (Not that I expect to see it!) The wealth of the Patriarchs was the reserve of the entire community. It was not conceptually a stash of gold to be spent for private amusement, giant tents, exclusive clubs, and first class seating on the caravan. It was community welfare for the poor when needed, seed capital for new herds, defense budget in time of war, gift money for newly weds, burial fund for newly dead. The Patriarch took the wealth that was in his control as God's wealth, under his stewardship. That is not the way modern wealthy man act, by a long stretch.

Both the Hebrew Scriptures and the New testament ridicule accumulation of wealth and the life style of the wealthy in many examples. But true enough, neither does it suggest that poverty is good. Thus the Bible warns off men from seeking gold and other riches as a way of life, while poverty can also set up a man for moral and ethical lapses, just in search of a daily crust.

I don't hold a man's high wealth against him personally, but I am inherently skeptical about that very worldly part of humanity. Wealth is a snare and a trap in the Bible. I further question how out of touch such men are with the struggles of daily life.

Last edited by David of Galilee; 11-04-2012 at 07:22 PM..
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  #46  
Old 11-05-2012, 06:26 AM
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I agree but the opposite of Capitalism just tends to be equal distribution of misery and poverty all around.
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It is absolutely true in war, were other things equal, that numbers, whether men, shells, bombs, etc, would be supreme. Yet it is also absolutely true that other things are never equal and can never be equal - Maj.Gen. J. F. C. Fuller

At that time, I will search out and destroy all of the nations who have come against Jerusalem - Zechariah 12:9
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  #47  
Old 11-05-2012, 11:26 AM
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Of course there is the old kibbutz model--internally, socialist in organisation; externally, market-driven products and services offered. It was refreshing in my kibbutz days to see men who ran very successful factories who never whined, "but I'm worth more to the kibbutz than the fruit picking members; I deserve more pay!"
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  #48  
Old 11-05-2012, 05:04 PM
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Poll closes in a couple of hours, if you havent voted yet, please do so we can get the maximum of votes for either side!
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  #49  
Old 11-06-2012, 12:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David of Galilee View Post
Of course there is the old kibbutz model--internally, socialist in organisation; externally, market-driven products and services offered. It was refreshing in my kibbutz days to see men who ran very successful factories who never whined, "but I'm worth more to the kibbutz than the fruit picking members; I deserve more pay!"
Would it work in the world of globalisation and mass production though?
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At that time, I will search out and destroy all of the nations who have come against Jerusalem - Zechariah 12:9
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  #50  
Old 11-06-2012, 04:24 AM
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@ New Ron, that post was very well-written. Spirituality, an already lacking aspect is on the decline in a huge way. And yes, if the larger population represented our opinions. Unfortunately it does not seem like that's the case.

@Knaur, that is the exact reason why kibbutz culture is on the decline. Inasmuch as the ideas are excellent, they don't fit in an ever-increasing and globalizing world/industry. Some kibbutzim are privatized now. The kibbutz system, in big kibbutzim has changed and is far different from what is was in the past.
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  #51  
Old 11-06-2012, 04:47 AM
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Kibbutz culture is not "in decline" exactly--rather has been in a state of flux and evolution. Yes, very different, but then what hasn't changed over the last 20-30 years anywhere? I lived on an old-style desert kibbutz almost 40 years ago, and much later on an "evolved" modern kibbutz on the Lebanese border. I have revisited both over the years.

They had rough times, and ups and downs, but have come through it nicely. Many kibbutzim are stellar examples of responding to changing economics. Hence all the hi-tech and innovation seen in kibbutz industry.

Both of my old kibbutzim are alive and well, and have very profitable industries as well as traditional, high-output agriculture. As communities, the still significant "shared economics" is of great benefit. Privatization has provided a means of continuation. They were always democracies, and they have gradually, for the most part, rethought and revamped and adapted. A disproportionate amount of Israel's profitable, innovative industry is on kibbutzim, as well as the agricultural production. That's a modest sign of success and eventually flexibility--not decline.

Last edited by David of Galilee; 11-06-2012 at 04:59 AM..
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  #52  
Old 11-06-2012, 05:54 AM
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How can Kibbutz respond to dirt cheap mass produced items imported from Asian nations? At some point or another, manpower or economies of scale will factor in.

Then again, perhaps it can be successful in a geographically small nation like Israel but not in large nations, for ex. I cannot see it succeed in India, too many challanges.
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  #53  
Old 11-06-2012, 06:27 AM
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It is absolutely true in war, were other things equal, that numbers, whether men, shells, bombs, etc, would be supreme. Yet it is also absolutely true that other things are never equal and can never be equal - Maj.Gen. J. F. C. Fuller

At that time, I will search out and destroy all of the nations who have come against Jerusalem - Zechariah 12:9
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  #54  
Old 11-06-2012, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David of Galilee View Post
...Is it not a major assault upon the fundamentals of their faith? Any one who has read LDS/Mormon theology (not anecdotal comments by Mormons) can see that it departs radically from Christianity.
... I am not at all clear about why a devout Evangelical would not reject BOTH candidates as a matter of faith. Or this a movement, a detente, which is gradually accepting Mormonism as legitimate, salvatory faith? .
I am a christian but I support Israel and the Jewish. I live in a moslem country, so there never was a christian presidential candidate.

I vote based on their ability and performance, not based on their religion.
Jesus Christ told the christian to "give the govt what they deserved, and give God what He deserved... it is not by coincident that the government have a sword in their hand... " and so on.

The religion? We pray in our religion, I asked God to enable that MOSLEM president to rule wisely and for democracy. I did vote moslem president and the NONE OF THE ABOVE option you mentioned (when all candidates are bad)
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Old 11-06-2012, 09:16 AM
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I live in a moslem country, so there never was a christian presidential candidate.
That one line is telling, it sums up the Islamic political system and its adherants and followers including lefty liberals worldwide.
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  #56  
Old 11-06-2012, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Knaur View Post
How can Kibbutz respond to dirt cheap mass produced items imported from Asian nations? At some point or another, manpower or economies of scale will factor in.

Then again, perhaps it can be successful in a geographically small nation like Israel but not in large nations, for ex. I cannot see it succeed in India, too many challanges.
First things first: Israel is successful. Israel doesn't try to produce what Chinese factories produce. Developed nations were already becoming post-industrial before China emerged from despotic central control to despotic laisez faire economics. American and other western workers demanded such high wages, yet wanted to pay low prices in their markets, that the export of manufacturing abroad was inevitable.

The Kibbutz, and Israel in general, focuse on unique, high tech, original, innovative. So we import dust pans and pot scrubbers and cheap dishware and children's toys from China. Our medical, military, agricultural, communications, software etc exports are in demand and in use everywhere, even Arab countries.

Yes, the US could have such an economy, if you ditched rule by unelected Big Business and Big Banking elites who stand behind the symbolic monarch enthroned by the Electoral College. The US needs healthy regional and local economic development, not a "national" economy. The big cats favour big things and big profit. Economy of scale often favours medium-size efficient, flexible business over giants. Many economists have suggested the need for distinct healthy local and regional economies in the US, well-coordinated and based on a good mix of small and medium and a few big business (but not too many). The damage that Walmart alone has done to the US economy has spawned dozens of doctoral theses and many other studies. Go local/regional, and the Israel model, or other smaller-scale models, would work.

Not that we don't have some giants, too. ZIM Shipping (pronounced Tzim) is in the top 20 largest shipping firms. Teva Pharmaceuticals is the largest generic drug supplier in the US. Israeli satellites provide a major part of European broadband service. Israeli designed computer chips are legendary. We are not a perfect economic model by any means, but I do believe that there is a reason why we barely felt the world recession that rocked the US and Mother Britain.

Also, our banks are not allowed to be speculative investment houses. Those who want high-risk investments go their stock brokers, or their favourite casinos abroad. They have far great liquidity than Euro-American banks. They did play with toxic debt for a while, but, long before the recession hit, the governor of the Central Bank of Israel told the banks to get rid of all toxic debt. Adon Fisher spotted a trend early, while Euro-American financial people were still pushing all kind of investment devoid of value-based reality.

You have the excellent people to change the economic patterns, and you have the motivated working class. The real malignancy is inside the Beltway, not with the American people. You guys know how to work hard and innovate. America began weakening long before Obama. Yet the people are not the problem, except maybe for believing that presidents somehow lead the way. The Founding Fathers designed a state-based system, not a powerful, party-based central autocracy.

Last edited by David of Galilee; 11-06-2012 at 12:08 PM..
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Old 11-06-2012, 06:34 PM
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I think Obama should and will win the Election.
Say, how has he earned, retroactively, that Nobel Prize for Peace in 2009, which is supposed to be awarded for deeds done, peace accomplished? I'd forgotten about that. Obama said at the time that he felt that he did not deserve the award. A moment of candor and honesty--or false modesty?

You make like the fellow, but saying that he should win? He spent almost one billion dollars to buy the office. I hope he got his money's worth!

Hmm, 8pm Jerusalem time, so soon enough we'll know what the exit polls are suggesting.

No love lost for Mr Obama in the Holy Land, I can say. From Dan to Be'ersheva, from the peak of the Heirmon to the Gulf of Eilat on the Red Sea, the Children of Israel will shout for joy when the last Electoral College ballot is cast--IF Mr Obama is on the short end of the count!
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Old 11-06-2012, 06:59 PM
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I think Obama should and will win the Election.
Except you came too late here to even vote, so you lose the poll on this forum.
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  #59  
Old 11-07-2012, 05:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David of Galilee View Post
First things first: Israel is successful. Israel doesn't try to produce what Chinese factories produce. Developed nations were already becoming post-industrial before China emerged from despotic central control to despotic laisez faire economics. American and other western workers demanded such high wages, yet wanted to pay low prices in their markets, that the export of manufacturing abroad was inevitable.

The Kibbutz, and Israel in general, focuse on unique, high tech, original, innovative. So we import dust pans and pot scrubbers and cheap dishware and children's toys from China. Our medical, military, agricultural, communications, software etc exports are in demand and in use everywhere, even Arab countries.

Yes, the US could have such an economy, if you ditched rule by unelected Big Business and Big Banking elites who stand behind the symbolic monarch enthroned by the Electoral College. The US needs healthy regional and local economic development, not a "national" economy. The big cats favour big things and big profit. Economy of scale often favours medium-size efficient, flexible business over giants. Many economists have suggested the need for distinct healthy local and regional economies in the US, well-coordinated and based on a good mix of small and medium and a few big business (but not too many). The damage that Walmart alone has done to the US economy has spawned dozens of doctoral theses and many other studies. Go local/regional, and the Israel model, or other smaller-scale models, would work.

Not that we don't have some giants, too. ZIM Shipping (pronounced Tzim) is in the top 20 largest shipping firms. Teva Pharmaceuticals is the largest generic drug supplier in the US. Israeli satellites provide a major part of European broadband service. Israeli designed computer chips are legendary. We are not a perfect economic model by any means, but I do believe that there is a reason why we barely felt the world recession that rocked the US and Mother Britain.

Also, our banks are not allowed to be speculative investment houses. Those who want high-risk investments go their stock brokers, or their favourite casinos abroad. They have far great liquidity than Euro-American banks. They did play with toxic debt for a while, but, long before the recession hit, the governor of the Central Bank of Israel told the banks to get rid of all toxic debt. Adon Fisher spotted a trend early, while Euro-American financial people were still pushing all kind of investment devoid of value-based reality.

You have the excellent people to change the economic patterns, and you have the motivated working class. The real malignancy is inside the Beltway, not with the American people. You guys know how to work hard and innovate. America began weakening long before Obama. Yet the people are not the problem, except maybe for believing that presidents somehow lead the way. The Founding Fathers designed a state-based system, not a powerful, party-based central autocracy.
That's a lot to digest. I am at work right now (you wouldn't guess from all the postings a ) so I ll take a look tonight
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At that time, I will search out and destroy all of the nations who have come against Jerusalem - Zechariah 12:9
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Old 11-07-2012, 06:12 AM
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Yes well Max, not everyone spent the last 4 years putting Federal machinery to use propagating their re-election campaign you see.
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At that time, I will search out and destroy all of the nations who have come against Jerusalem - Zechariah 12:9
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