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Debate Social & Political Issues Debate Social and political discussion about Israel/Palestinians, the Middle east or world politics.

View Poll Results: Romney or Obama? Who do you support.
Mitt Romney 18 94.74%
Barack Hussein Obama 1 5.26%
Voters: 19. You may not vote on this poll

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  #21  
Old 10-28-2012, 04:33 AM
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I just want to point the discussion in a different direction for a bit. I know the overwhelming majority seem to support Romney here, which is excellent. The case is the same in my school. However, the more people I meet in general, the greater the extent of support for Obama I see.

Me and a couple of friends were on our way home from the NY Philharmonic this week when, on the subway, we struck up a conversation with 2 schoolteachers. They were surprised by the seeming contradiction of us being politically educated while looking at the kippot on our heads, but that is an entirely different matter. They openly supported Obama as "educated" Americans. You'll often find that many people are truly blind...

@Bowcaster, my point exactly. As much as you're a good dude, you represent the liberal face of teenage Jews in America. Unfortunately, Paparock and many others can bring evidence to testify to Obama's anti-semitic and anti-israel affiliations and opinions.

And hahah, Knaur, that's a good one.
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  #22  
Old 10-28-2012, 07:42 AM
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I hope I was clear that I was relaying what I learned both in reading LDS theology, as explained by faithful Mormons, and in reading what professing Biblical Christians have said about Mormonism from their Biblical viewpoint. I am not trying to say what I like or not, or who is better or worse. Many Christians over many decades have stated publically that Mormonism is occult--this is therefore NOT my statement, nor do I even necessarily have an opinion at this time on the issue.

So please no one imagine that I am in any way suggesting that Obama is my candidate, OR that I believe that Romney is despicable or evil for being a Mormon. I am struggling to find out why a Biblical Christian could vote at all for either candidate, Romney because of a long-standing opinion of so many Evangelicals that Mormonism is occult. Obama has been in office 4 years almost, and I can see why he does not appeal to Evangelical voters, clearly.

That, in a nutshell, is the issue. I know many non-American Evangelicals, but only a few from the US. One of my few American Evangelical friends is an elderly gentleman from Oregon who I met one day in Teveryya when he was visiting in Israel name Dave Hunt, in case you know his writings. He is unequivocal about Mormonism, so it made me wonder if he is a typical Evangelical or not. (I don't know how wide-spread his works are, but a few have shown up in Hebrew.)

I can see exactly why Obama is not acceptable to Evangelical Christians. What really interests me, however, is the issue of the large Evangelical vote and Romney. Romney is said to be a devout Mormon, and I'll take his own claims at face value. He hasn't suggested that he disbelieves Mormon theology. Abroad we get the impression that being an Evangelical Christian voter means voting with a Bible perspective. But is it this, or really more voting conservative?

These terms and ideas are very cultural, so what may be obvious to Americans about domestic politics is not all that easy to understand everywhere else. Benyamin Netanyahu would be a liberal on most social issues by American standards, yet is much loved by conservatives in America. He is a Hawk on the defense of the Jewish nation. But Hawk and Conservative do always not correlate well here in Israel.

Romney is an avowed, faithful Mormon. Obama has a secular, pluralist, social-agenda orientation.

So I will rephrase my question:

A) Will it be a compromise, in any way, spiritually or otherwise, for a man of Biblical Christian faith to vote for a man of strong Mormon faith?

B) Is it legitimate for Biblically-minded voter to declare both Obama and Romney as unacceptable on spiritual grounds?

C) Or is the fundamental issue conservative vs liberal?
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  #23  
Old 10-28-2012, 01:13 PM
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I believe the answer is C. Many elections have come down to partisanship, and since this one seems to be so partisan (look at how both are at each other's necks during debates; this also represents the populace of their parties and Congress), the main issue is Republican v/ Democrat at the end of the day.
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  #24  
Old 10-28-2012, 02:43 PM
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Republicans vs Democrats--and I have a very hard time telling the actual positions apart from each other. Suits that toot. As with other western democracies, main are all pretty solidly centrist. Even Bush jr and Reagan were only nominally conservative, and Reagan held some pretty liberal personal views.

So, Romney is appealing to real, deep, serious conservatism, or-? Not sure I see genuine old-fashioned conservatives on the American horizon--just centrists. Maybe Ron Paul, who had some very interesting unBiblical views, and who was no friend of Israel.

So how is Romney a genuine conservative, and not a centrist? He is totally unknown here, and most American journalism is partisan. I want to give the guy a fair shake. Is he an actual first-choice candidate, or is he a just the best of the two? And was his candidacy an actual popular upswelling, or was he just what was left after the others fell to the side?

Is voting for Romney more of an anti-Obama vote than a pro-Romney?
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  #25  
Old 10-28-2012, 04:45 PM
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David of Galilee, in my view and to those I talk to, it is what we see as what is good for the country. Obama and those like him do not view the Constitution as a limit to their power, where those such as myself see his constant attempts to suplant it along with the seperation of powers as bordering on treason. Todays "Progressives" often try to say that a ruling from the Supreme Court is a end all judgement on an issue however I beg to disagree. For example, The Supreme Court once ruled slaverly legal in the USA only later to overturn it as the courts make-up changed.

Progressives have tried a power grab in American before and that was why term limits were put in place for our presidency. Do a web search for the facts.

Romney is not my or many Christians first choice however Obama is a Muslim sympathizer shown by both his actions and words! Obama will sell Israel and Jews out in a second term. Look up "Black Liberation Theology" which Rev, Wright taught in the Church Obama attended for 20 years. Check out its theology on Jews and Israel. One does not attend such a church for twenty years and call its leader your spiritual mentor unless you agree with much of his beliefs. The public does not know who Obama really is.

In my personal opinion Obama will be judged by history as one of the worst Presidents in American history.

Viewing Obama's record honesty; why would anyone vote for him? Look at his actions and not his words!
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Last edited by Paparock; 10-28-2012 at 04:48 PM..
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  #26  
Old 10-28-2012, 06:22 PM
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Lightbulb Even Rev. Write will not make the claim that Obama is a Christain.

I have read where even Rev. Write will not make the claim that Obama is a Christain.


http://www.shoebat.com/2012/05/15/alleged-new-recordings-of-jeremiah-wright-cast-doubt-on-obamas-christianity/

One claim had to do with Obama’s Christianity. During an appearance on Sean Hannity’s radio show, Klein said that Wright wouldn’t go so far as to say he converted Obama from Islam but he came awfully close:
…the Reverend Wright told me on tape, that Obama came to him and said, ‘I need some spiritual advice; I don’t know exactly who I am’ and the Reverend Wright said… ‘Well we know your Islam background… but what you need now, is some coaching on Christianity.’ And I asked the Reverend Wright ‘did you convert him from being a Muslim to being a Christian and he said, ‘well, I don’t know if I could go that far but… I made it comfortable for him to accept Christianity without having to renounce his Islamic background.’
Does Islam not repudiate Christianity by denying this central component? Why is the reverse not true as well? Christianity must necessarily repudiate Islam for the same reason.

If Klein’s claim is true, perhaps the best we can say about the president is that he is a ‘Chrislamist,’ which means he is not a Christian. At worst, the president is feigning Christianity for political expediency so that he can remain a Muslim.

http://www.aim.org/aim-column/new-book-casts-doubt-on-obamas-christian-identity/

http://www.examiner.com/article/author-says-wright-helped-obama-accept-christianity-without-denouncing-islam

Now comes author Edward Klein telling Sean Hannity that Jeremiah Wright, former pastor of United Church of Christ in Chicago, told him that he “made it comfortable” for Obama to accept Christianity “without having to renounce his Islamic background.”

http://godfatherpolitics.com/5255/rev-jeremiah-wright-i-made-it-comfortable-for-obama-to-accept-christianity-without-having-to-renounce-his-islamic-background/

Does the above need answered?

Is Obama a Christain or still a Muslim? I think the American people need a straight answer!
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  #27  
Old 10-29-2012, 03:47 PM
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David, voting for Romney is more pro-Romney than anti-Obama. Yes, Romney is actually closer to centrist (he IS a left-wing conservative), but that is because he was governor of Massachusetts, a state over-represented with 87% Democrats. Hence, Romney had to learn how to compromise and semi-adjust his positions.
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  #28  
Old 10-29-2012, 09:30 PM
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Thumbs up Israelis Overwhelmingly Favor Romney

Unlike the Rest of the World, Israelis Overwhelmingly Favor Romney




Remember the BBC poll last week which showed that internationally President Barack Obama is overwhelmingly more popular than Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney? In every country polled besides Pakistan, Obama got huge approval ratings, pulling in more than 60 percent in Canada, Australia and the UK, and even 72 percent from the French.



Turns out, there’s one country defying that trend in a very big way.

A new poll shows that Israeli Jews overwhelmingly favor Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney over President Barack Obama. The “Peace Index” poll from the Israel Democracy Institute and Tel Aviv University shows that 57 percent of Israeli Jews prefer Romney over Obama, who receives 22 percent support, a difference in popularity of almost three to one.

This means that the political outlook of Israeli Jews is trending in the opposite direction of American Jewish voting patterns as shown in the latest poll from the American Jewish news site the Algemeiner, which has been tracking American Jews’ political preferences almost every day leading up to the elections. Its latest IDB/TIPP tracking poll published Thursday shows Obama at 69.3 percent among American Jewish voters with Romney at 29.7 percent.

This is consistent with other polls of likely Jewish voters, including the latest from the American Jewish Committee which found 65 percent of American Jews nationwide plan to vote for Obama, 24 percent for Mitt Romney, and 10 percent undecided. The only exception is among Orthodox Jews who favor Romney.

The Israeli Peace Index poll was conducted between October 22 and 24 and included 601 respondents. The margin of error is 4.5 percent.

Besides finding favor from conservative Israelis, Romney also sees support from those who define themselves as middle-of-the-road, 54 percent of whom say they prefer to see him in the White House. Interestingly, even 30 percent of left-wing Israelis say they support Romney over Obama.

By contrast, 45 percent of Israeli Arabs say they favor Obama, while 15 percent like Romney.

The Jerusalem Post reports the question the poll asked was: “In terms of Israeli interests, who would be preferable to win the elections next month in the U.S.”

It also reports that “a similar Peace Index poll in July found that Israelis felt that Romney ‘assigned more importance to defending Israel’s national interest’ than Obama by a 2:1 ratio: 40% for Romney to 19% for Obama.”

(H/T: Jerusalem Post)

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/unli...-favor-romney/
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  #29  
Old 10-30-2012, 11:48 AM
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i dont know who the BBC asks in these polls in the UK but most people i know think obama is an idiot
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  #30  
Old 11-02-2012, 12:37 AM
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@PapaRock, while that's a statistic that's pleasing to hear, Israelis aren't the ones voting. Poor blacks, Hispanics and idiotic American liberals are.
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Old 11-02-2012, 05:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacobtess View Post
@PapaRock, while that's a statistic that's pleasing to hear, Israelis aren't the ones voting. Poor blacks, Hispanics and idiotic American liberals are.
A govt. that takes away from Peter to give away to Paul can always count on the support of Paul.
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  #32  
Old 11-02-2012, 12:35 PM
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Don't forget that our opinion of Obama and Romney here in Israel is based on exactly one thing: What is best for the survival of the Jewish nationality, both here in the homeland Israel, but also anywhere else in the world, regardless of the technical citizenship of any group of Jews. So we don't consider domestic American issues, social, economic or otherwise. We see a one-track binary computational proposition. GOOD for Jews/BAD for Jews. Or sometimes put, LESS BAD/MORE BAD.

The Israelis who have a right to vote in US presidential elections will almost all vote on the single Israel issue. I asked a group of them recently if they thought that most Americans would be happy with Israelis casting ballots solely based on Israel's needs. Most agreed that Americans probably would not like that. There were over 80,000 Israeli absentee votes already cast (around 25% of ALL US absentee ballots world-wide), and almost all vote in Israel's interest, and not out of any general American domestic concern. So American election law views these Israelis as Americans, yet they are distinctly voting as Israelis using a vestige of a citizen right they have being born in the US. Interesting, especially with a figure of over 80,000 ballots in such a tight race...

If elected, Romney will have a lot on his mind. Since he is an American president, he is obligated to be an honest executive for all US citizens, regardless of whether they like him or not. I doubt that he will be able to focus all that much attention on Israel. Americans don't like a lot of foreign policy focus by their presidents generally, and certainly not when the US has a weak economy and growing debt. He'll be blasted if he appears to be giving a lot of time to Israel. Romney does address the matter of Israel, but if you take all his public statements and press releases as a whole, Israel really doesn't loom large. And, he is aiming for the conservative Christian vote, which is very large, and not the tiny Jewish vote, which is only locally significant, and shrinking every year.

Israel stand's a good chance of fading away from any candidate's consciousness once the Beltway Feeding Frenzy (aka patronage handout time) sets in.

From an Israeli, this is not cynicism--it is realism.

Last edited by David of Galilee; 11-02-2012 at 12:49 PM..
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  #33  
Old 11-02-2012, 01:46 PM
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Romney is a patriot, and that really is all that matters. Obama is NOT a patriot.
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Old 11-02-2012, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by New Ron View Post
Romney is a patriot, and that really is all that matters. Obama is NOT a patriot.
I could discuss Israeli definitions and ideas of patriotism, but I confess that I haven't got a clear idea of how Americans define their patriotism. How do Obama's supporters define patriotism? And Romney's supporters? Obama has the vote of many Black vets. Romney probably has the white vets. But is is really much more complicated than that, I'm sure.

Patriotism seems like a simple matter. Though here in Israel we have a lot varieties of political and social thought represented in our many parties, and the only group I would define as anti-patriotic would be the self-hating, anti-Zionist Jews who apologize for Israel existing, or who use religion as an excuse not to serve in the IDF. But they are explicit about their beliefs, so there is little question about them.

How explicit has Obama's anti-Americanism been? He seems to use all the catch-phrases of patriotism. I know I do not like Obama on account of Israeli concerns. What has been definably anti-American, as opposed to being different from conservative? Then how to think about roughly half of all voters in America voting for Obama? Are there that many anti-American citizens, or do that many Americans just live in a different reality from the Romney supporters?

This is the first election in the US where I am trying to really understand things beyond the supporter slogans. I am having no easy time. So far I can't see how either men were spontaneously raised up their shields by loving supporters. Who actually puts these men forward? Are they the grass-roots choice of typical working class and middle class citizens? Polls have shown that neither were even national household names until after the selection process started. Steam comes out of my ears to even think of a party in Israel with a leader no one has heard of until he starts campaigning, who might then be asked to form a government and become prime minister.

I fear I shall not get to the bottom of this.
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Old 11-02-2012, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David of Galilee View Post
I could discuss Israeli definitions and ideas of patriotism, but I confess that I haven't got a clear idea of how Americans define their patriotism. How do Obama's supporters define patriotism? And Romney's supporters? Obama has the vote of many Black vets. Romney probably has the white vets. But is is really much more complicated than that, I'm sure.

Patriotism seems like a simple matter. Though here in Israel we have a lot varieties of political and social thought represented in our many parties, and the only group I would define as anti-patriotic would be the self-hating, anti-Zionist Jews who apologize for Israel existing, or who use religion as an excuse not to serve in the IDF. But they are explicit about their beliefs, so there is little question about them.

How explicit has Obama's anti-Americanism been? He seems to use all the catch-phrases of patriotism. I know I do not like Obama on account of Israeli concerns. What has been definably anti-American, as opposed to being different from conservative? Then how to think about roughly half of all voters in America voting for Obama? Are there that many anti-American citizens, or do that many Americans just live in a different reality from the Romney supporters?

This is the first election in the US where I am trying to really understand things beyond the supporter slogans. I am having no easy time. So far I can't see how either men were spontaneously raised up their shields by loving supporters. Who actually puts these men forward? Are they the grass-roots choice of typical working class and middle class citizens? Polls have shown that neither were even national household names until after the selection process started. Steam comes out of my ears to even think of a party in Israel with a leader no one has heard of until he starts campaigning, who might then be asked to form a government and become prime minister.

I fear I shall not get to the bottom of this.
In short: Obama Apologized for America's actions in 2009, for actions taken by other Presidents and the US Military and he did so in a foreign country, at another nations government house. As if America was some nazi state having to apologize for crimes against humanity, specifically done against Muslims.

When in fact Islamic terrorists have been attacking and killing Americans for decades and all of America's actions have been in response to that.

In a way very much like Israel's actions against Jihadists.

Romney, never makes such statements, in fact when Obama was so keen to use the same excuse by the terrorists in the latest Cairo and Benghazi attacks, Mitt Romney openly said you dont go sympathizing with the enemy in times like these.

To give you an understanding of how two men behave differently and one (ROMNEY) regards his country with honor and pride , the other one (OBAMA) regards his country America with shame of some sort.

When Obama BOWED to the King off Saudi Arabia it brought shame on America, not the President of France, not the President of Burundi bowed before the King of Saudi Arabia, but the president of the first world superpower BOWED in dishonor and with shameless displays!




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Old 11-02-2012, 09:50 PM
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Imagine for a moment this FICTIONAL SCENARIO: "PM Bibi Netanyahu", went on a trip to Turkey tomorrow and made a big speech at their parliament building, stating "That he apologizes for Israels actions against the Palestinians all these years, that there has been great injustice done when Israel fights the "resistance" and that in general Israel must behave nicer to muslim nations."


Just imagine that for a moment and then, tell me, how would Israelis in general react. Some leftists might applaud, but I think many would look at it with disgust. As if the "palestinians" werent blowing up innocent civilians in Israel. As if the PLO Hamas etc werent the ones who started assassinating Israeli officials, killing, kidnapping Israeli soldiers. As if Israel was being a bully and not nations like Iran who every year call for the destruction of the Israeli state.

This was ofcourse a FICTIONAL SCENARIO and we all know Bibi Netanyahu is the polar opposite of Obama!
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Old 11-02-2012, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
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Obama has the vote of many Black vets. Romney probably has the white vets.
I dont know where you got that, but its not accurate.

There are some prominent black vets that he is USING and they are accepting to be used to show to black voters as if Black vets are on his side. But in fact many military people go according more to their individual needs and also many are far more patriotic than Obama.

Meaning, you can go and find a bunch of WHITE military vets supporting Obama, because they are more liberal or angry at wars etc and want to vote for a non republican. Many you will find who are like that also tend to be pro Dr Ron Paul.

The same thing for Black military vets. Of whom Ive seen some openly supporting Dr Ron Paul. Many others supporting Romney, because they know he is PRO MILITARY, unlike Obama who is downsizing and as explained in above posts not a good reflection on America.

In general yes there is a feeling among many blacks, atleast a few years ago, that Obama is their 'black" president, even if he is actually Milk chocolate and not even 2nd or more generation "african american". But those arent military or military vets, thats in the larger population.

Obama having won the election, couldnt have depended just on black voters, he needed a large majority of white voters to be able to win and he got them.

For example Ive been called a racist as many have for being opposed to Obama, its the typical argument done by Obama supporters to stop the argument and make you feel guilty. The interesting thing is, all those who have called me racist have been white supporters of Obama, and not black. They want to show that THEY are not racist, but that I am. Which makes it even more interesting is I'm not even white lol.
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Old 11-03-2012, 08:01 AM
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I am in complete agreement that opposing Obama is not a racist deed in any way. My comment about vets was a reflection of American media, which we see all over the world; it was about sterotypes of parties and traditional support in US politics.

As said, I have no confusion why anyone would reject Obama as a leader--none whatsoever. American politics is very difficult to understand, because abroad we don't see very many well-known national figures even making it to the final November showdowns. (Reagan in contrast was very well known already.)

So the issue for me in not why would anyone vote against Obama, but rather, how well do the American people really know Romney? Not why would they vote for him, but who is he, beyond the campaign rhetoric. I have, as they say, no dog in this hunt. As an Israeli I am not much swayed by those things that might rightfully affect an American. And, unlike many salt-of-the-earth die-hard Israel supporters, every one whom I cherish, I just don't believe that American presidents lead the "Free World" or have nearly the impact on the this planet that many (or some) Americans might think. I am guilty of having a fixation on my own country, and we have been screwed royally by presidents of both parties ever since the US embargo on weapons sales to Israel in the dark days of 1948.

What I do think of is this: the justifiably anti-Obama men and women of principle have had now almost four years to select, vet, sponsor, fund, and campaign for a man or woman of high character, modest, honest and solid, with genuine, natural grass-roots appeal. I know that out of 307 million people, you have many such people worthy of the presidency.

Yet another millionaire with a total of one elective state office who wasn't anything like a household name, or a known national figure. Thus the American people who do not care for Obama as president, are faced with an option that is full of uncertainties. I found his own words both pro-homosexual rights, and seemingly opposed (on homosexual marriage). He was totally accepting of abortion and "pro-choice" in the recent past, and now he is portrayed as "pro-life." He attached himself to Binyamin Netanyahu, yet the Netanyahu people made it clear here that they were not really close friends (in Hebrew at least), even if our PM would love to see Obama out.

In short, I do see people appearing at least to be "making do" with Romney. But as a very serious historian of American history, Romney hardly fits the traditional, conservative patriotic mould. And since the Evangelical Christian vote is a very large one in America, and Evangelical leaders typically portray Romney's religion as non-Christian and even occult, it looks to me like supporting Romney is, for some at least, an "anything to get rid of Obama" vote. Which, if the case, is completely understandable.

Yet I believe that the anti-Obama forces could well have found any number of far, far better candidates, and had a number of them make the evening news enough to have challenged the conventional election process; a somewhat closed, arcane process which pushes out 2 centrist candidates ever four years, and tells the citizenry, "Pick One."

I see no serious democracy in these presidential elections. And that pains me.

Last edited by David of Galilee; 11-03-2012 at 08:09 AM..
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Old 11-03-2012, 11:27 AM
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Romney has always been a patriot. But not always very conservative on religious issues. He is a capitalist business man and he does it very well.

I dont understand this growing idiocy among so called conservatives that Rich people are anti freedom, anti American. This was the way socialists took rich people and still do! But today we see conservatives and libertarians joining in the hey Romney is too rich talk. They behave more like anti capitalists. I for one know capitalism has many flaws and these ought to be corrected, but compare capitalist nations with communist ones and you see which one brings more freedom, more advancing, even if the taxing system is draining Americans, and this ought to stop! Smaller government, less dumb projects and trillions would be saved. This is why Ron Paul touches base with so many on economic issues, something the GOP and DNC fail miserably!

The fact that Americans chose Romney, was simply because MOST Republicans, do not want hardliners as Presidents. Romney was popular from the get go in almost each primary, minus a few.

The die hard conservatives and I know many, didnt want Romney at all. Partly because he has done some flip flopping and partly because he is a Mormon.

Yet if they thought for a moment and saw honestly that the only way to get swing voters and democrats to vote for someone other than Obama, its not by having Santorum or even Newt Gingrich, who themselves have flip flopped, but are have a better record in conservative voting and beliefs ofcourse are closer to Evangelical and Protestant ones, even if they were both Catholics and that too, made them lose support!

As you said all these years the conservatives could have found someone, but the truth is they were all divided on who they would want. Like I said Romney was the closest in his policies to what the majority if REPUBLICANS want. Or simply put the other candidates were too conservative for the taste of many in the GOP.

Most people in the Tea Party proper, would elect conservatives in congress in 2010, but somehow they failed to mobilize properly this year for the Presidential election. Not to mention the Tea Party sort of divided itself into several parts, the more hardline, and the less hardline. In 2010 they and the GOP all stuck together and all supported the "stars" of the tea party, of whom many got elected in congress. After that the GOP proper went back to the Rinos...and the Tea Party was left weaker. Dr Ron Paul also sort of left the Tea Party and most of his followers joined the Occupy movement, which at the same time boosted Obama more, because he too supported the Occupy movement.

The libertarians who have more in common with die hard liberals on many issues, (minus guns, immigration etc) in a way weakened the Tea Party. The rest was done by the GOP itself.

To put it simply "conservatives" are very very divided.

Yes voting for Romney among many Evangelicals is voting against Obama, not voting for Romney.
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Old 11-03-2012, 12:53 PM
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No one is evil or immoral just because they are rich, but being part of a wealthy minority does tend to make a very high proportion of richer classes unaware of the struggles of the average, hard-working man and woman. There is a reason for that famous Christian NT belief, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."

Capitalism has allowed many people in many parts of the world to become wealthy without following ethical practices or moral personal behaviour. Some few may manage to keep their sense of right and wrong, of fair play, while amassing fortunes, but in the history of this world it is not something that happens very often.

It would be interesting to see a presidential race with a slate of well-known, popular candidates with long histories of public service, elective office or otherwise, whose positions are familiar to the general public. A situation in which different people have a candidate who is exactly their choice, and not a "ma she'yesh" or "that's what's available" candidate.

When I watched the "debates" I had a hard time on most issues discerning a clear statement from either man, or indeed a clear conservative vs liberal stance. Or maybe the classic definitions of conservative and liberal have morphed so much since my old university days, that I just don't see what Americans are seeing.

I'd bet that Wall Street bankers will be invited into the White House to give advice and lobby under either man, and not unemployed auto workers or young people who can't find careers, or pensioners who worked 40 years and can't pay their bills.
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