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Navy Forum Israeli Navy discussion, submarines, frigates and Israeli naval forces + Navy's from other nations.

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  #41  
Old 06-08-2008, 11:29 PM
MD2011 MD2011 is offline
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Just say yes to IDF Boomers!
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  #42  
Old 01-20-2009, 06:59 PM
ROCKEYE ROCKEYE is offline
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SSGs (conventional or AIP submarines optimized for land-attack or antiship attack missions) would be a better solution and would not be dependent upon development of a massive infrastructure as is needed by current operators of SSBNs. Land-attack cruise missiles (LACM) are as capable of eradicating a target as a submarine-launched ballistic missile (SLBM) if carrying a nuclear warhead. LACMs with GPS guidance and submunition payloads are capable of degrading threat air defense networks, permitting a follow-up IDF/AF airstrike.

It comes down to:

What is the mission?
What is the threat?
What are the defenses?
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  #43  
Old 02-04-2009, 01:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROCKEYE View Post
SSGs (conventional or AIP submarines optimized for land-attack or antiship attack missions) would be a better solution and would not be dependent upon development of a massive infrastructure as is needed by current operators of SSBNs. Land-attack cruise missiles (LACM) are as capable of eradicating a target as a submarine-launched ballistic missile (SLBM) if carrying a nuclear warhead. LACMs with GPS guidance and submunition payloads are capable of degrading threat air defense networks, permitting a follow-up IDF/AF airstrike.

It comes down to:

What is the mission?
What is the threat?
What are the defenses?
To deploy off the coast of Iran, if they launch missile, then Boom goes Iran!
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  #44  
Old 02-04-2009, 02:35 PM
ET1(ss) ET1(ss) is offline
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Low flying cruise missiles are hard to assess origin.

When coming in from the sea they could have been launched by anyone.

They have the ability to deny their launch.
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  #45  
Old 02-11-2009, 10:24 PM
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Other advantages of an IDF Navy SSG with an AIP system would be: smaller acoustic signature, simpler forward support from a freighter or tanker in the Arabian Sea or Gulf of Oman, and the use of cannister-launched LACMs would offer the option of permitting the SSG to slowly exit from the firing datum. An IDF Navy SSG would also be capable of carrying sufficient numbers of naval mines to block Bandar Abbas or Chah Behar.
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  #46  
Old 08-08-2009, 02:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Punjabi_Jutt View Post
Israel has ICBMs???
Well, let's put it this way... Israel can launch satellites, right? Well, an ICBM is basically a satellite launch, but with two key things changed: you replace the satellite with something at the tip that goes BOOM, and instead of staying in space the tip comes right back to earth (just not right back to YOU... unless you screwed up).

This is a bit of an oversimplification, but what with Israeli secrecy and all, I don't think that the public can really say for sure, but I'd say yes, Israel has ICBM-type capabilities.



As to the subject of an SSBN: the cost would be prohibitive, but there is good reason to consider this option in the future. While a diesel sub is very quiet, an SSBN can get very lost, for a very long time. So in the event of a conflict, it would be hard for Israel to have more than 2 of 3 (or 3 of 5) subs out to sea on rotation, whereas an SSBN could provide a layer of response that diesel subs simply do not offer.

Then there is the issue of insertion and extraction teams operating from subs. Much more could be done from what would be a larger subs with more instrinsic resources.

You could make a better argument, but even with all that said, it is still too early and I don't think that Israeli economy can support this. As the GDP approaches $300b to $400b, maybe then.... (that's only a decade or so away).
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  #47  
Old 08-18-2009, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AEWHistory View Post
Well, let's put it this way... Israel can launch satellites, right? Well, an ICBM is basically a satellite launch, but with two key things changed: you replace the satellite with something at the tip that goes BOOM, and instead of staying in space the tip comes right back to earth (just not right back to YOU... unless you screwed up).

This is a bit of an oversimplification, but what with Israeli secrecy and all, I don't think that the public can really say for sure, but I'd say yes, Israel has ICBM-type capabilities.

As to the subject of an SSBN: the cost would be prohibitive, but there is good reason to consider this option in the future. While a diesel sub is very quiet, an SSBN can get very lost, for a very long time. So in the event of a conflict, it would be hard for Israel to have more than 2 of 3 (or 3 of 5) subs out to sea on rotation, whereas an SSBN could provide a layer of response that diesel subs simply do not offer.

Then there is the issue of insertion and extraction teams operating from subs. Much more could be done from what would be a larger subs with more instrinsic resources.

You could make a better argument, but even with all that said, it is still too early and I don't think that Israeli economy can support this. As the GDP approaches $300b to $400b, maybe then.... (that's only a decade or so away).
Given the Shavit Satellite Launcher / Jericho Ballistic Missile history and development... Send them into low-earth orbit, and they can go anywere.

Basically, the idea of initiating and maintaining an Israeli nuclear submarine force (say two) is hard to wrap one's mind around. Two such boats might need as much of a budget as the entire Israel navy, or more perhaps (this is way above my experience level, needless to say).

But then, Britain, with the world's 5th largest economy, doesn't maintain all that many nuke subs anymore--15 or 16 I think. They could definately afford to do better, if the budget boys didn't hack at them so. I wonder if they even see dedicated sub deployment within the two new Queen Elizabeth II class supercarrier groups that will eventually be rolled out?
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  #48  
Old 08-19-2009, 01:43 AM
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Actually, Britain has four Vanguard class FBM submarines in service: Vanguard (S28), Victorious (S29), Vigilant (S30), and Vengeance (S31)

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanguard_class_submarine

As to the capabilities of the Shavit, it is roughly comparable to a Minuteman II. See this analysis by Steve Fetter: http://www.publicpolicy.umd.edu/Fett...silePrimer.pdf
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  #49  
Old 08-26-2009, 06:05 AM
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Should they? I'm going to say yes. With Iran becoming closer to stepping into the "Nuclear club" the idea of a fair amount of Israeli SSBNs is appealing due to the fact that they can strike Iran and targets of equal threat from somewhere outside of Israel. This makes it much more difficult for a successful first strike offensive to be carried out by Iran and hostile nations like it and would serve as another deterrent for the benifit of Israel as striking an SSBN successfully with a limited naval force like Iran has becomes very difficult especially with an SSBN capable of striking any hostile country in the world from anywhere in the world. I mean you fire an ICBM in a defensive response at Iran from the middle of the Pacific and there won't be much Iran could do about it except to eat the warhead. A real BOHIC situation. lol :D
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Last edited by Archangel; 08-26-2009 at 06:08 AM..
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  #50  
Old 08-27-2009, 02:42 AM
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It would be totally impractical for Israel to acquire SSGN's.

Firstly you would need to get 'someone' to build them for you, there are very few countries even capable of building SSGN's, and I strong doubt that even the USA would even contemplate the possibility purely on political grounds.

For a start you would be looking at a 10 to 12 year timeline to get a SSNG in to service.

It would also take that long to train up a crew and set-up the necessary infrastructure.

Yes you could do the refits in the USA?

The 3 Dophin class SSK subs that Israel already, has plus the 2 more in the pipeline, are all the capabilities in submarine's that Israel needs to carry out an attack from the sea to whatever land mass in the M.E. they need to defend against.

Plus in all reality the IAF already has ground penetrating ordnance they recently test with great success against underground tunnels in the latest and ongoing Gaza operation.

If Israel needs to take out nuclear facilities in Iran in the near future, it will be from the air their main assault will come from, even if they could put all of the 3 Dolphins off Iran, I doubt if they would have the fire power to properly destroy all of Iran's nuclear facilities.

Hopefully commonsense will prevail and we will never have to find out.

Irak and Syria should be example enough on Israel's ability and determinarion to carry out an attack if Iran's is stupid enough to push their luck too far.

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  #51  
Old 08-27-2009, 05:17 AM
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I don't see justifying the expense. And the US isn't going to pay for that kinda hardware. With the money it would take to build a pen for them, train people to man them, repair, rearming, re-equiping them after every mission at sea. Not to mention protecting them.

It just isn't worth it. I don't know the exact costs of these things, but I'm sure you could buy many more tanks, planes, weapons, body armor, whatever you needed than spend it on a few subs that aren't going to help your security situation that much.

They just aren't worth the cost in Israel's case. It would be for national bragging rights...and to brag against who? The Arabs? Pfft...
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