Israel Military Forum

Welcome to the Israel Military Forum. You are currently viewing our Israel Forum as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions, Image Forum and access our other features. By joining our Israel Military Forum you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so
Join Our Israel Community Today!
If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.
Go Back   Israel Military Forum > Israel National security > Navy Forum
Register FAQ Pictures Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Navy Forum Israeli Navy discussion, submarines, frigates and Israeli naval forces + Navy's from other nations.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 02-17-2009, 03:48 AM
namvet namvet is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 36
namvet is on a distinguished road
Default

the more the better. but watch out for Britian and france. their's ran into each other.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 02-17-2009, 03:51 AM
namvet namvet is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 36
namvet is on a distinguished road
Default

How Nuclear Subs Could Go Bump in the Night


Quote:
Britain and France have always had their cultural differences, but the latest military miscommunication between the two hardly has them shouting vive la difference! This one literally could have gone nuclear.

A couple of elite nuclear submarines, the British HMS Vanguard and the French Navy's Le Triomphant, collided in the Northern Atlantic on Feb. 4 while "conducting routine patrols," both countries acknowledged on Sunday. Both subs are armed with multiple-warhead nuclear missiles.
source
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 02-18-2009, 12:51 AM
SpacemanSpiff's Avatar
SpacemanSpiff SpacemanSpiff is offline
Dragon
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Frostbite Falls
Posts: 1,641
SpacemanSpiff is on a distinguished road
Default

Hm. Namvet, your source (Fox News) also states:
Quote:
"The crash could have been a coincidence — some people win the lottery — but it's much more possible that one vessel was chasing the other, trying to figure out what it was."
Let me be the first to admit I am not a Navy guy, but given that both subs were boomers, this seems rather odd. (Now, if one was a boomer and the other an attack boat, then I could understand.)

Thoughts, anyone ?
__________________
“We will make no distinction between the terrorists who committed these acts and those who harbor them.”--George Bush
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 02-18-2009, 02:19 PM
ET1(ss) ET1(ss) is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Maine, USA
Posts: 97
ET1(ss) is on a distinguished road
Default

Generally boomers have a habit of hiding. Never ever chasing anything.

Only fast attacks play cat and mouse.

Two entirely different mindsets.

On the other hand subs do go bump every now and again. At least every 2 years or so the bumps make the news.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 08-08-2009, 05:06 AM
AEWHistory's Avatar
AEWHistory AEWHistory is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Trenton, NJ
Posts: 126
AEWHistory is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by betgilson View Post
.....
But the next two have a whole new propulsion technologie (FUEL CELL)
which makes the sub independent of air and can stay underwater for much longer time (3 weeks) and is more silent than all other subs worldwide.

The new sub is called 212 class a more sophisticated model than the predecessor Dolphin (Diesel fuelled)

The 212 class has stealth capability a silent propulsion which uses destilled water!!!! (Fuel Cell)

by making the first 3 subs for Israel the German shipyard was able to acquire knowledge of new technologies which draw to the achievment of the new model 212.

the first 2 subs of Dolphin class were a gift to israel.
he third one was paid 50/50. Israel and German government.

On the next two class 212 (sold in 2005) German is still making gifts to Israel paying 1/3 of the total price. The total price is estimated by 750-950 million Dollar each.

I think the two are going to be delivered in 2010.
What I'd like to know is if the Dolphins will be able to be retrofitted with some of this technology. The Fuel Cells (I believe that the Dolphin actually does have them, just a much earlier, less impressive version) should be relatively easy to retrofit; much of the other stuff, not so much. Any articles mention this?

As for Germany and gifts, are you sure you've got that right? I'm going from memory, so perhaps I'm wrong, but I could've sworn that the way you described the Doplhin purchases is backwards: the last one was a "gift" and the first two were paid for 50/50. Also, while I'm appreciative of what Germany has done, it was said that Germany did this so they didn't have to run down the production at that time and lose the shipyard jobs. So there was some self-interest involved..... there always is.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 08-18-2009, 05:38 PM
David of Galilee's Avatar
David of Galilee David of Galilee is offline
Dragon
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Galilee
Posts: 1,481
David of Galilee is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by deut_20-21 View Post
Yes, tis true.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Eilat get some renovations.

Also, India and Israel seem to have reached a deal giving Israel a port.
The India connection could be very interesting--a back door on a potentially explosive region.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 08-18-2009, 05:54 PM
David of Galilee's Avatar
David of Galilee David of Galilee is offline
Dragon
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Galilee
Posts: 1,481
David of Galilee is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ET1(ss) View Post
With all due respect.

No they will not be similar to nuc subs.

We are still talking about coastal-water subs using coastal-water techniques.

These will not be blue water boats.

Nor will they have nuc boat like capabilities.

I have been a crewman onboard 3 different US FBM subs, I am familiar with the OP subject matter.

I would prefer that Israel did build a few nuc boats, but this is far from it.

The best that we can hope to see for sonar ability would be a 'Shark-Gill'-like system, and not a towed array for any real distance or clarity.

As for 'Low noise' we will have to wait and see how much effort is truly put into the project. But it should likely rank along with the other diesels. Not as good as the Sterlings. Better for coastal or ice-picking.

Venture out away from the shallows of the coast line, and be very careful; as those down in the deep blue will hear you and begin targeting you [it is in their nature].

May God bless you.
Home porting a big nuclear sub would be a very expensive headache for Israel. Haifa Bay? It is a mixed naval/civilian harbour.

Also, the money one big sub takes would mean a big minus from somebody's budget somewhere.

I think a mixed fleet makes best sense for the US Navy, Royal Navy, and I hope they consider adding back a few hi-tech diesels. I'd love to speculate on the game plan for coordinating in-close stealthy diesels and big nukes into a fleet like the US or even Britain have.

As for us, tiny Israel, I'd say these Dolphin-class boats make good sense, and give a lot of bang for the shaq. I'd like to see an active sub force of maybe 8 or 9. Maybe more unmanned subsurface patrol and detection "subs" too.

(From Maine? Anywhere near the Bath Iron Works? A friend of mine was a senior hull engineer there on the Spruance class destroyers.)
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 09-30-2009, 11:56 PM
SpacemanSpiff's Avatar
SpacemanSpiff SpacemanSpiff is offline
Dragon
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Frostbite Falls
Posts: 1,641
SpacemanSpiff is on a distinguished road
Default

According to AFP (via Google News: http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...mlIkVylnRAoUyg ), Israel has taken delivery of two more Dolphin subs:
Quote:
Israel gets two more German submarines (AFP) – 1 day ago

JERUSALEM — Israel has taken delivery of two German submarines ordered four years ago, a military spokesman said on Tuesday.

"We have received two Dolphin-class submarines built in Germany," he said, on condition of anonymity.

The submarines, called U212s, can launch cruise missiles carrying nuclear warheads, although when it confirmed the sale in 2006 the German government said the two vessels were not equipped to carry nuclear weapons.

The subs were ordered in 2005 and delivery was initially expected in 2010.

Including the two new ones, Israel has five German submarines -- the most expensive weapon platforms in Israel's ****nal.

Germany, which believes it has a historic responsibility to help Israel because of the mass murder of Jews in World War II, donated the first two submarines after the 1991 Gulf War. It split the cost of the third with the Jewish state.
According to Jane's Defence Weekly, the U212s are designed for a crew of 35, have a range of 4,500 kilometres (2,810 miles) and can launch cruise missiles carrying nuclear warheads.

Israeli media have written that the Dolphin submarine could be key in any attack on arch-foe Iran's controversial nuclear sites.

An Israeli submarine recently used the Suez Canal for the first time in June, escorted by Egyptian navy vessels, in what Israeli media said was intended as a message to Iran.
Widely considered the Middle East's sole if undeclared nuclear power, Israel suspects Iran of trying to develop atomic weapons under the guise of a civilian nuclear programme, a charge Tehran denies.

Copyright © 2009 AFP. All rights reserved. More »
Similarly, Debka is reporting:
Quote:
Israel receives at least one new German Dolphin-class submarine

DEBKAfile Exclusive Report
September 30, 2009, 10:25 PM (GMT+02:00)

DEBKAfile's military sources report that at least one of two Dolphin-class U212 submarines on order for the Israeli Navy from the German HDW shipyards in Kiel was delivered this week, bringing the Navy's total number of this type of sub to four. According to foreign military sources, the Dolphin is capable of carrying cruise missiles with nuclear warheads.
Israel has never officially confirmed possession of this type of nuclear-capable submarine. According to our military sources, Chancellor Angela Merkel was persuaded by the military tensions put forth by Iran to step in personally and raise the completion of Israel's submarine order fitted out for cruise missiles to top priority. The work was finished a year before the date on the contract.

The delivery of at least one of the pair of Dolphins just before the Six Powers confront Iran on its nuclear program Thursday, Oct. 1, gives substance to Israel's option to strike Iranian nuclear facilities.

In June, an Israeli Dolphin passed through the Suez Canal for the first time, escorted by Egyptian navy vessels, as a message to Tehran that Cairo would open the waterway to Israeli warships in the event of the controversy over Iran's nuclear program getting out of hand.

DEBKAfile only confirms the arrival of one Dolphin.
The French and Italian news agencies, AFP and ANSA, reported Tuesday that Israel had taken delivery of not one but two German-made U212 submarines and now had a fleet of five. AFP quoted a military spokesman in Tel Aviv. An ANSA correspondent reported that military sources in Tel Aviv and Berlin had declined to comment on the report except for promising to check it. According to the Italian reporter, it is also possible that the subs were handed to an Israeli Navy crew by the shipyard and had not yet reached Israel.
__________________
“We will make no distinction between the terrorists who committed these acts and those who harbor them.”--George Bush
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 10-01-2009, 12:28 AM
HideNSeek HideNSeek is offline
Dragon
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 590
HideNSeek is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpacemanSpiff View Post
According to AFP (via Google News: http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...mlIkVylnRAoUyg ), Israel has taken delivery of two more Dolphin subs:
Similarly, Debka is reporting:
I have some doubts, firstly since when is the Dolphin= Type 212?, that just seems wrong.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 10-01-2009, 01:04 AM
SpacemanSpiff's Avatar
SpacemanSpiff SpacemanSpiff is offline
Dragon
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Frostbite Falls
Posts: 1,641
SpacemanSpiff is on a distinguished road
Default

Good catch. I just lazily typed the text I saw.

On the other hand, this news is making its way around the internet: http://www.defensenews.com/story.php...55&c=EUR&s=SEA
__________________
“We will make no distinction between the terrorists who committed these acts and those who harbor them.”--George Bush
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 10-01-2009, 04:04 AM
WABA WABA is online now
Dragon
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,543
WABA will become famous soon enough
Default

Greece has 'decided' that it will not take delivery of 4 subs from Germany.

I believe HDW the german sub builder has cancelled their contract.

Israel could acquire these subs at a very short notice?

That is ofcourse if Israel could afford the cost not only of the subs, but the ongoing costs of the crews. the training cost. the maintainence costs, the infrastructure costs and logistical costs.

It ain't cheap to run and maintain any military equipment.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 10-01-2009, 07:07 AM
HideNSeek HideNSeek is offline
Dragon
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 590
HideNSeek is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WABA View Post
Greece has 'decided' that it will not take delivery of 4 subs from Germany.

I believe HDW the german sub builder has cancelled their contract.

Israel could acquire these subs at a very short notice?

That is ofcourse if Israel could afford the cost not only of the subs, but the ongoing costs of the crews. the training cost. the maintainence costs, the infrastructure costs and logistical costs.

It ain't cheap to run and maintain any military equipment.
It's election time in Greece, and the new leadership (the ones who actually signed the contract in the first place before this government came to power) will probably resolve the problem. In any case, it might still be awhile because their will be some legal process here.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 10-01-2009, 08:10 AM
Natan's Avatar
Natan Natan is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Israel, Sderot
Posts: 72
Natan is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WABA View Post
Greece has 'decided' that it will not take delivery of 4 subs from Germany.

I believe HDW the german sub builder has cancelled their contract.

Israel could acquire these subs at a very short notice?

That is ofcourse if Israel could afford the cost not only of the subs, but the ongoing costs of the crews. the training cost. the maintainence costs, the infrastructure costs and logistical costs.

It ain't cheap to run and maintain any military equipment.
Keep in mind that the Dolphin class is adjusted to Israeli requirements, especially in terms of some wider launch tubes for Popeye Turbo cruise missiles with nuclear warheads (according to foreign publications).

U214's made by HDW for Hellenic navy have only straiter sub-Harpoon launch tubes.
__________________
  • NO to fanboyizm
  • NO to "Debka" e.t.c
  • NO to xenophobia
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 10-04-2009, 06:06 PM
Paparock's Avatar
Paparock Paparock is offline
Dragon
Photobucket
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Southern California High Desert Mountains
Posts: 48,313
Paparock is on a distinguished road
Arrow Israeli Dolphin subs upgraded for missiles, larger fuel capacity

Israeli Dolphin subs upgraded for missiles, larger fuel capacity


October 4, 2009


Western naval sources report that Israel's German-made Dolphin submarines have been heavily modified: its torpedo tubes enlarged to accommodate missiles, new electronics installed and its fuel capacity expanded to keep the vessel at sea for 50 days without refueling. Eight years after receiving the first three Dolphin subs from Germany and two more last month, naval sources rate them the most modern non-nuclear subs in any world navy.

Israel is reported by foreign sources to have equipped the new Dolphin-class subs with Israel-made 1,500-km range cruise missiles carrying 200 kiloton nuclear warheads and 135-kilometer range US-made Harpoon missiles also fitted with nuclear warheads. These missiles, fired through the newly-enlarged 650mm-26-inch tubes, can reach Iranian coastal targets including its nuclear sites as well as naval, port and Revolutionary Guards facilities.

The Dolphins' expanded fuel tanks enable them to cover distances of up to 10,000 kilometers from their Mediterranean home port (instead of 8,000 kilometers heretofore) and spend more time - up to 50 days - off the Iranian coast.

DEBKAfile's military sources note: Their presence outside Israeli waters is a powerful deterrent to any surprise nuclear or conventional attack, endowing Israel with an instantaneous second-strike nuclear capability.

In June, an Israeli Dolphin passed through the Suez Canal for the first time, escorted by Egyptian Navy vessels, relaying a message to Tehran that Cairo would open the waterway to Israeli warships for a short cut to the Persian Gulf (instead of the long way round the Cape of Good Hope) should the controversy over Iran's nuclear program get out of hand.

On Sept 30, DEBKAfile reported the delivery of the last two Dolphin-class U212 subs Israel ordered from the German HDW shipyards at Kiel, raising its total submarine fleet to five.

For the full story click HERE.

Unlike the first three, the new U212 Dolphins have a fuel cell based on an air-independent propulsion system which enables them to stay under water for more than a week without surfacing. They are also very quiet and hard for Iranian sea hunters to detect.
__________________
O Israel
The LORD bless you and keep you;
The LORD make His face to shine upon you and be gracious to you;
The LORD lift up His countenance upon you and give you peace.

Asymmetric Warfare It’s not just for the “Other Guys”

Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 01-17-2010, 01:20 PM
stelios stelios is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 134
stelios is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WABA View Post
Greece has 'decided' that it will not take delivery of 4 subs from Germany.

I believe HDW the german sub builder has cancelled their contract.

Israel could acquire these subs at a very short notice?

That is ofcourse if Israel could afford the cost not only of the subs, but the ongoing costs of the crews. the training cost. the maintainence costs, the infrastructure costs and logistical costs.

It ain't cheap to run and maintain any military equipment.
Greece will take 3 subs (the order was for 4, 3+1 option). the 4"sub(the first one) is for sale, greek navy dont accept it for tehnical reasons.... anyway "dolphins" are a more than subs ,is strategic weapons (and better sub).
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 05-30-2010, 05:31 PM
SpacemanSpiff's Avatar
SpacemanSpiff SpacemanSpiff is offline
Dragon
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Frostbite Falls
Posts: 1,641
SpacemanSpiff is on a distinguished road
Default

From the Sunday Times:

Quote:
Israel stations nuclear missile subs off Iran

Uzi Mahnaimi in Tel Aviv

Three German-built Israeli submarines equipped with nuclear cruise missiles are to be deployed in the Gulf near the Iranian coastline.

The first has been sent in response to Israeli fears that ballistic missiles developed by Iran, Syria and Hezbollah, a political and military organisation in Lebanon, could hit sites in Israel, including air bases and missile launchers.

The submarines of Flotilla 7 — Dolphin, Tekuma and Leviathan — have visited the Gulf before. But the decision has now been taken to ensure a permanent presence of at least one of the vessels.

The flotilla’s commander, identified only as “Colonel O”, told an Israeli newspaper: “We are an underwater assault force. We’re operating deep and far, very far, from our borders.”

Each of the submarines has a crew of 35 to 50, commanded by a colonel capable of launching a nuclear cruise missile.

The vessels can remain at sea for about 50 days and stay submerged up to 1,150ft below the surface for at least a week. Some of the cruise missiles are equipped with the most advanced nuclear warheads in the Israeli ****nal.
__________________
“We will make no distinction between the terrorists who committed these acts and those who harbor them.”--George Bush
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 05-30-2010, 07:20 PM
Paparock's Avatar
Paparock Paparock is offline
Dragon
Photobucket
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Southern California High Desert Mountains
Posts: 48,313
Paparock is on a distinguished road
Arrow Israel stations nuclear missile subs off Iran

Israel stations nuclear missile subs off Iran



Three German-built Israeli submarines equipped with nuclear cruise missiles are to be deployed in the Gulf near the Iranian coastline.

The first has been sent in response to Israeli fears that ballistic missiles developed by Iran, Syria and Hezbollah, a political and military organisation in Lebanon, could hit sites in Israel, including air bases and missile launchers.

The submarines of Flotilla 7 — Dolphin, Tekuma and Leviathan — have visited the Gulf before. But the decision has now been taken to ensure a permanent presence of at least one of the vessels.

The flotilla’s commander, identified only as “Colonel O”, told an Israeli newspaper: “We are an underwater assault force. We’re operating deep and far, very far, from our borders.”

Each of the submarines has a crew of 35 to 50, commanded by a colonel capable of launching a nuclear cruise missile.

The vessels can remain at sea for about 50 days and stay submerged up to 1,150ft below the surface for at least a week. Some of the cruise missiles are equipped with the most advanced nuclear warheads in the Israeli ****nal.

The deployment is designed to act as a deterrent, gather intelligence and potentially to land Mossad agents. “We’re a solid base for collecting sensitive information, as we can stay for a long time in one place,” said a flotilla officer.

The submarines could be used if Iran continues its programme to produce a nuclear bomb. “The 1,500km range of the submarines’ cruise missiles can reach any target in Iran,” said a navy officer.

Apparently responding to the Israeli activity, an Iranian admiral said: “Anyone who wishes to do an evil act in the Persian Gulf will receive a forceful response from us.”

Israel’s urgent need to deter the Iran-Syria-Hezbollah alliance was demonstrated last month. Ehud Barak, the defence minister, was said to have shown President Barack Obama classified satellite images of a convoy of ballistic missiles leaving Syria on the way to Hezbollah in Lebanon....

__________________
O Israel
The LORD bless you and keep you;
The LORD make His face to shine upon you and be gracious to you;
The LORD lift up His countenance upon you and give you peace.

Asymmetric Warfare It’s not just for the “Other Guys”

Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 05-30-2010, 08:19 PM
ishmael's Avatar
ishmael ishmael is offline
Dragon
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Chicago,IL USA
Posts: 737
ishmael is on a distinguished road
Default

Israel officailly has no nuclear weapons. So this is proof of european anti semetic logic. If a News paper wrote unconfirmed stories about B. Obama it would be liable.

As i understand dieel submarines are quietest! Harderst to detect, and can be refueled at sea from some nice Tanker. I know india, thailand, singapore( 3 counties very sympathetic to israel both officailly and as a matter of fact.)often have thier tanker fleets in persian gulf. I realize that tankers cary crude , however; ships use #1 diesel for auxcillary machinery. Bless the defenders of Israel where ever they take the fight.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 05-30-2010, 09:41 PM
Paparock's Avatar
Paparock Paparock is offline
Dragon
Photobucket
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Southern California High Desert Mountains
Posts: 48,313
Paparock is on a distinguished road
Arrow Israel officially neither confirms nor defines it has any nuclear weapons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ishmael View Post
Israel officailly has no nuclear weapons. So this is proof of european anti semetic logic. If a News paper wrote unconfirmed stories about B. Obama it would be liable.

As i understand dieel submarines are quietest! Harderst to detect, and can be refueled at sea from some nice Tanker. I know india, thailand, singapore( 3 counties very sympathetic to israel both officailly and as a matter of fact.)often have thier tanker fleets in persian gulf. I realize that tankers cary crude , however; ships use #1 diesel for auxcillary machinery. Bless the defenders of Israel where ever they take the fight.

You are right Ishmael; Israel officially neither confirms nor defines it has any nuclear weapons.
__________________
O Israel
The LORD bless you and keep you;
The LORD make His face to shine upon you and be gracious to you;
The LORD lift up His countenance upon you and give you peace.

Asymmetric Warfare It’s not just for the “Other Guys”


Last edited by Paparock; 05-30-2010 at 09:43 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 05-30-2010, 10:46 PM
joejd12 joejd12 is offline
Dragon
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 742
joejd12 is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ishmael View Post
Israel officailly has no nuclear weapons. So this is proof of european anti semetic logic. If a News paper wrote unconfirmed stories about B. Obama it would be liable.

As i understand dieel submarines are quietest! Harderst to detect, and can be refueled at sea from some nice Tanker. I know india, thailand, singapore( 3 counties very sympathetic to israel both officailly and as a matter of fact.)often have thier tanker fleets in persian gulf. I realize that tankers cary crude , however; ships use #1 diesel for auxcillary machinery. Bless the defenders of Israel where ever they take the fight.
im no way an expert, but from what i know diesel submarines are better for "brown water" (shallow depth close to shore) operations while nuclear submarines are better for blue water operations...

the fact that a diesel submarine has to be refueled like you said is actually one of its biggest drawbacks...

in fact, the limited range and length of deployment afforded by diesel subs was the reason that the Israeli navy decided to build a closed off harbor for its submarines in haifa, as arab citizens of haifa were said to have been reporting submarine movements to the Iranians, aiding their ability to calculate their position...

p.s.- i was in one of the israeli navy's dolphin class submarines, i must say i would not want to spend too much time in it
Reply With Quote
Israel Forum
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 04:33 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Israel Military Forum