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  #21  
Old 10-06-2010, 10:24 PM
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ok, this just kills me.
i just have to know once and for all, and i hope someone can answer me.

WHY, for the love of GOD, doesn't Israel get Skyguard ?
if the system works, why not use it ?
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  #22  
Old 10-07-2010, 11:31 AM
haamimhagolan haamimhagolan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
ok, this just kills me.
i just have to know once and for all, and i hope someone can answer me.

WHY, for the love of GOD, doesn't Israel get Skyguard ?
if the system works, why not use it ?
I thought that this had been beaten to death under other threads by now.

First, Skyguard does not exist as a weapons system today. It is a proposal - one which would require at least a billion USD to develop into a viable system. The US and Israeli army ran trials of the underlying technology under the THEL program (Tactical High Energy Laser), and evaluated the option of developing it into a practical system as MTHEL (Mobile Tactical High Energy Laser). Both the US Army and the IDF rejected the technology in 2004. Skyguard is Northrop Grumman's proposal for re-launching a smaller version of MTHEL - assuming that someone with deeper pockets than the US Army would want to do so.

The reasons that MTHEL and Skyguard were not funded should be self evident. A chemical laser such as this requires a constant supply of volatile, highly toxic chemicals to fuel the laser. A single Skyguard battery would fill half a football field, between the laser, radar, and chemical supply trucks. The rate of fire for the system was also called into question. An finally, there are a wide variety of countermeasures that can reduce the effectiveness of this technology, from coating the rockets with a reflective layer, to putting up a smoke screen that prevents the laser from reaching the target.

The bottom line is that even the US armed forces, with far greater resources than Israel has, have elected not to pursue laser technology at this time. Chemical lasers have too many down sides (toxic chemicals and rate of fire), and solid state lasers cannot currently reach the necessary power requirements. A similar fate has been granted to the USAF's Airborne Laser program.
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  #23  
Old 10-07-2010, 01:14 PM
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How about THEL? Or MTHEL? ;)
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  #24  
Old 10-07-2010, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damir View Post
How about THEL? Or MTHEL? ;)
To elaborate on haamimhagolan's fine response:

1. Chemical lasers (which these are) use halogens (fluorine, chlorine, bromine, or iodine) to create an inverted population for lasing. These gases are highly corrosive, and in fact chlorine was the first lethal war gas used in a large scale (see: http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk...ld_war_one.htm). Clearly, you don't want this stuff dispersed as part of normal operations next to a populated area, and supply and temporary storage of the stuff in a battle area is not a good idea either.

2. Any laser anti-rocket system will require a sensor (generally, radar) to perform detection, discrimination, and tracking--just the same as in a gun or missile system. Merely by virtue of using a laser doesn't eliminate this need. And radars often constitute half or more of the cost of a system.

3. All lasers (chemical or solid state) will suffer from absorption in a dusty, foggy, or rainy environment, and will have difficulty penetrating clouds.

4. Countermeasures to lasers include merely spinning the missile (as this prevents the laser from "dwelling" on one side of the missile) to a reflective coating (either mirror-like or as simple as white paint) to an ablative coating that removes heat by vaporizing. The latter is the reason lasers are not proposed as the kill mechanism against long range missiles (except in boost phase)--the ablative heat shields on reentry vehicles inherently defeat lasers.

So, what is the advantage of a laser system ? Low cost of operation (although I wouldn't be surprised if CWIS/Phalanx was similar). And this would be an important consideration IF we expect to receive incoming Kassam fire in high volume routinely and for an extended period of time. But as we have discussed elsewhere, large scale rocket attacks mean war. Defense merely gives Israel breathing room as it takes out the rockets and missiles at their source.

I really think Israel has chosen the proper course (if they would just fund it properly). Maybe supplemented by a dozen CWIS/Phalanx systems for towns immediately around Gaza and for Kiryat Shmona, and to defend a few very high value targets.
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  #25  
Old 10-07-2010, 02:45 PM
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so basically you're saying that missile protection systems are not a solution to rocket attacks.
KILLING the people firing the rockets, is the solution, while the Missile protection system simply means that while Israel is busy applying the solution, Iron dome can deal with the missiles being fire at the time.

and i can sorta see that working.
if a single Iron dome missile costs 40,000 $ a piece, and on average would only go after one in 5 missiles that are a threat to cities, then i can see the value of it.
If Israel ends up going on a full scale attack meant to destroy hamas, and Hamas fires 100 missiles a day for two months before dying out, then it means wasting around 48,000,000 $ worth of interceptors over 2 months, but at the end, the rocket problems would be solved (because those firing them would be dead).

thats not that high of a price to pay all things considered.
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  #26  
Old 10-07-2010, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
so basically you're saying that missile protection systems are not a solution to rocket attacks.
KILLING the people firing the rockets, is the solution, while the Missile protection system simply means that while Israel is busy applying the solution, Iron dome can deal with the missiles being fire at the time.

and i can sorta see that working.
if a single Iron dome missile costs 40,000 $ a piece, and on average would only go after one in 5 missiles that are a threat to cities, then i can see the value of it.
If Israel ends up going on a full scale attack meant to destroy hamas, and Hamas fires 100 missiles a day for two months before dying out, then it means wasting around 48,000,000 $ worth of interceptors over 2 months, but at the end, the rocket problems would be solved (because those firing them would be dead).

thats not that high of a price to pay all things considered.
Well, that is my theory.

But I wouldn't consider it "wasted", because lives and property will be saved, and normal economic life can continue. This is afterall the purpose of defense.

A second benefit is the interception of sporadic rocket fire. It is my hope that successful interception may cause Hamas (and perhaps Hezbollah too) to abandon their rocket build-up out of frustration. And in extremis, perhaps weaken Hamas or even cause its collapse. (I mean, what good is a "resistance movement" if they can't resist ?)
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  #27  
Old 11-11-2010, 12:36 AM
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From the Jerusalem Post:

Quote:
IDF decides to store, not deploy, Iron Dome system

By YAAKOV KATZ
11/08/2010 06:50


Anti-rocket defense system will be located in center of country, will be deployed only in cases of extreme rocket fire from Gaza or south Lebanon.

After months of deliberations, the IDF has decided to store the Iron Dome anti-rocket system at an air force base in the center of the country and to deploy it only in cases of extreme rocket fire from either the Gaza Strip or southern Lebanon, senior military sources said on Sunday.

The decision was made ahead of the planned announcement that Iron Dome had reached “initial operational capability,” initially scheduled for this month.

On Sunday, top IDF officers told The Jerusalem Post that the initial operational capability would be postponed until the first quarter of 2011. The delay, the officers stressed, was not due to technical malfunctions but rather to the intricate process of training IDF officers and soldiers to use the complicated weapons system.

“This system is unbelievable,” one officer said. “It is, however, sometimes a complicated process to take in such a system and to turn it operational and into a fully functioning weapons system.”

Last month, Iron Dome, developed by Rafael Advanced Defense Systems, was delivered to the IAF, which has designated the Hatzor air base near Gedera as the headquarters for the new system, which was designed to counter incoming rockets at a range of four to 70 kilometers.

Each battery consists of a multimission radar manufactured by Israel Aerospace Industries and three launchers, each with 20 interceptors capable of protecting a vast stretch of land.

The system passed a series of tests in July, when it successfully intercepted a number of 122 mm. Grad-type Katyusha rockets.

The IDF has already identified positions along the borders with the Gaza Strip and Lebanon that can be used by the system, which includes a launcher, radar and command post.

“The idea is to have a number of locations throughout the country where we will be able to deploy the system – basically to plug it in and have it up and working in real time,” a defense official said.
This sounds to me like the air force is not willing to allocate more than a token number of active duty personnel to Iron Dome, but rather intends that it be deployed by reservists on mobilization.

I am concerned. Any weapons system that has an "intricate process of training IDF officers and soldiers to use the complicated weapons system" is not something you can expect to keep in storage and then just unpack during a war. It would be the same as expecting fighter pilots to perform their duties without actually having flown an aircraft for years.

I truly hope that the IAF maintains enough Iron Dome systems in an active state to allow proper training of the reservists who will man these systems in time of war.
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  #28  
Old 11-11-2010, 05:53 AM
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Rafael has planning to introduce a very low cost surface/surface derivative of the Iron Dome missile system named 'Iron Flame'. This low cost missile will perform as a high precision surface-to-surface rocket, utilizing part of Iron Dome's Tamir missile guidance systems. The 'Iron Flame' missile will weigh several tens of kilograms, carrying a variety of warheads, including blast fragmentation and penetrating warheads, it will be able to deliver pinpoint attack with an effect of an artillery projectile at the ranges currently covered by tube artillery.


Rafael, on its part continues to develop the Iron Dome system, today introduced a surface/surface derivative of the system named ‘Iron Flame’. This low-cost, autonomous weapon system employs an Iron Dome interceptor stripped off its advanced proximity intercept seeker, retaining the high maneuverability, precision guidance and in-flight update capability. Packed with modular warhead and a variety of seekers to fit specific missions, ‘Iron Flame’ will carry fragmentation or penetrating warheads, providing precision attack capability to engage targets and answer calls for fire support by forces operating within its ‘circle of fire’. Rafael unveiled the new development at the ‘Fire and Combined Arms Warfare in Urban terrain’ international conference held this week by Israel’s Artillery Corps association in Zikhron Yaakov in Israel.

http://defense-update.com/wp/2010111...ome_delay.html
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  #29  
Old 11-14-2010, 03:22 AM
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Interesting, HideNSeek.

Yeah, there is a history of using missile airframes for different purposes than originally intended. For example, the Shrike was based on Sparrow, Standard ARM from the Standard RIM-66, etc.

Regarding Iron Dome, I see there is now an article at Army-Technology.com: http://www.army-technology.com/proje...eairdefencemi/
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  #30  
Old 11-14-2010, 08:48 AM
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Well these things cost so much money it aint funny.


However the people who made this system called it something unique. They will probably deploy it in case any major population centers are under any threat. Places like Serdot, just get screwed.
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  #31  
Old 11-14-2010, 09:07 AM
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more like, they plan to only deploy it in case of an emergency, which also gives them an excuse to go in an finish the job.

if you deploy it in Shderot now, you'll only end up wasting missiles slowly day by day.
even if its just a missile per week, its still 40,000$ per week.
better to wait until we have an escalation, in which case we may end up spending more missiles, but we'll also have a chance to END the rocket threat (and Hamas's control of the strip) completely.
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  #32  
Old 11-15-2010, 12:43 PM
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http://canberra.mfa.gov.il/mfm/web/m...11&MissionID=2



How much would your wife or shild be worth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
more like, they plan to only deploy it in case of an emergency, which also gives them an excuse to go in an finish the job.

if you deploy it in Shderot now, you'll only end up wasting missiles slowly day by day.
even if its just a missile per week, its still 40,000$ per week.
better to wait until we have an escalation, in which case we may end up spending more missiles, but we'll also have a chance to END the rocket threat (and Hamas's control of the strip) completely.
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  #33  
Old 11-15-2010, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hworta View Post
http://canberra.mfa.gov.il/mfm/web/m...11&MissionID=2



How much would your wife or shild be worth?
didn't say i approve.
just calling it as i see it.
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  #34  
Old 11-15-2010, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hworta View Post
How much would your wife or shild be worth?
And just how many israeli civilians were killed after operation Cast Lead from those rockets and mortars? None. Why? Missile alarm and great civilian training can do just fine in times when terrorist shot only a few missiles in week (+ most of those missiles hit an open field with no any damage or injuries).
That's why it's better to keep Iron Dome for eventual escalation or another war.
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  #35  
Old 11-15-2010, 05:17 PM
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the rockets and morters aren't meant to KILL (although they always hope they would)
they are meant to TERRORIZE.
they are meant to make people live under constant fear for their lives.

every single time a missile is launched, every single man woman and child in Shderot spends the next 15-20 seconds under the question "is this the moment i die ?"
and the following 5 minutes calling everyone they know in shderot to find out if THEY are OK.
and this can happen several times every single day.

Terrorism isn't just about killing.
its about sowing fear.
and in THAT regard, the rockets are perfect.
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  #36  
Old 11-15-2010, 06:31 PM
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True, but there's various types of rockets. Grad type for example can pose a significant danger for population because those types have a greater amount of shrapnel in it.
As for mortars, those kind of weapons can be very dangerous as well if it hit on the "right place". Believe me man, I know. Ever heard for a "Markale massacre"? That was done by a mortar shell. ;)
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  #37  
Old 02-14-2011, 12:58 AM
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From SpaceWar:

Quote:
Knesset urges $1.4 billion Iron Dome buy

by Staff Writers


Jerusalem (UPI) Feb 11, 2011


The Knesset's Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee has recommended the military buy 13 batteries of the Iron Dome anti-missile system at a cost of $1.4 billion amid repeated warnings by military commanders of the threat of a major missile blitz.

The acquisition of the controversial missile system built by state-owned Rafael Advanced Defense Systems will likely be spread over several years.
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  #38  
Old 02-14-2011, 06:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpacemanSpiff View Post
From SpaceWar:
Quote:
The Knesset's Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee has recommended the military buy 13 batteries of the Iron Dome anti-missile system at a cost of $1.4 billion amid repeated warnings by military commanders of the threat of a major missile blitz.
i can't help buy raise an eyebrow regarding this one.
Iron dome isn't meant to counter missile attacks.
the System that Is meant to counter missile attacks won't be ready for a few more years yet, and its THOSE systems that we should be spending billions on.

don't get me wrong, i'm all for buying a lot of Iron dome systems as well, as a think they would prove very useful in protecting staging areas.
but the big money should be spent on the systems meant to counter stuff like the Fatah-110/M-600.
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  #39  
Old 02-14-2011, 11:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
Iron dome isn't meant to counter missile attacks.
the System that Is meant to counter missile attacks won't be ready for a few more years yet, and its THOSE systems that we should be spending billions on.
Rockets.

I hear you. I get rather upset with the lack of precision.

Even more upsetting is the tendency of news media to accompany any missile related story with an image of whatever missile they found it easy to get their hands on at the moment. This Nike Hercules photo is common filler (note that Nike air defense sites in the US were closed in the early 70s, and most of those in Europe replaced with Patriot in the 80s):



On the other hand, Nike Hercules is an impressive looking missile, and I wouldn't mind a photo of it now and then, if it were labeled correctly.
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  #40  
Old 02-27-2011, 07:03 AM
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The best and cheapest way to counter over the border shooting is to occupy the lands from which the shooting came from. When Hamas and Co. started to bombard Israel for instance with 5-10km. range rockets we should have re-occupy a 10km. strip and extend the security zone proportionally reajusted each time the enemy's upgrade their capability to reach further into Israel. But the biggest mistake was first to unilateraly evacuate Gaza and secondly not having ousted Hamas, trounce their military, not liberated Shalit during the "Cast Lead" operation.
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