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Army Related Forum Topics about the Israeli armed forces, special forces, tanks, apc's, guns etc + world armies.

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  #1  
Old 09-29-2006, 06:27 AM
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Default New armoured vehicles from Israel

Practically at the same time they have announced the shutdown of the Merkava production line both IMI and RAFAEL are announcing new armoured vehicles for LIC operations.

RAFAEL has presented a vehicle called the Golan. IMI is showing some details of a proof-of-concept vehicle called Wildcat. Both are based on COTS automotive platforms. You can find some details in the documents I am attaching. The information comes from www.defense-update.com

In the past five years the IDF has shown big interest is wheeled armoured vehicles. The latest examples are:

David (armoured Land Rover Defender): More than 100 units in service
Ze´ev (or Wolf) based on a Ford F350 platfrom
Dingo based on a Unimog platform. 105 units purchased to Germany
Stryker: Three units in experimental tests.

And now these two new contenders. Interesting.

If anybody can share more information it would be great
Attached Files
File Type: doc Golan Wheeled Armored Vehicle.doc (51.5 KB, 76 views)
File Type: doc Wildcat Wheeled Armored Vehicle.doc (40.0 KB, 46 views)
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  #2  
Old 09-29-2006, 07:32 AM
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What about this?

http://www.defense-update.com/featur...6/merkava4.htm
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  #3  
Old 10-11-2006, 11:14 PM
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That is the Namer. It's the favourite vehicle for the IDF but it seems that the problem is its price. IMO it is potentially the best APC in the world. It would be a great replacement for Achzarits and Nakpadons but...

Coming back to the wheeled vehicles I am attaching here a couple of brochures on the David and the Wolf
Attached Files
File Type: pdf 538.pdf (294.4 KB, 27 views)
File Type: pdf David.pdf (99.1 KB, 24 views)
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  #4  
Old 10-11-2006, 11:27 PM
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Andres, ¿de que parte de Madrid eres? Aunque vivo en los Estados Unidos por lo menos tres meses de los doce del año me puedes encontrar en Carabanchel. ¡Mucho gusto conocerte! A lo mejor el año que viene te veo en la Complutense.

In any case,

I hope to God that they don't introduce further variants of the Stryker, including the mobile gun systems. It would be a horrible replacement for the Merkava Mk. 4, although I really doubt they will replace the Merkava Mk. 4. Stopping production doesn't necessarilly mean they wont be using armour, and I doubt that they'll stop production in the end. Nevertheless, Israel wouldn't be the only country interested in new wheeled reconaissance vehicles.

Some new American vehicles:

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  #5  
Old 10-12-2006, 06:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan M. Finegold
Andres, ¿de que parte de Madrid eres? Aunque vivo en los Estados Unidos por lo menos tres meses de los doce del año me puedes encontrar en Carabanchel. ¡Mucho gusto conocerte! A lo mejor el año que viene te veo en la Complutense.

In any case,

I hope to God that they don't introduce further variants of the Stryker, including the mobile gun systems. It would be a horrible replacement for the Merkava Mk. 4, although I really doubt they will replace the Merkava Mk. 4. Stopping production doesn't necessarilly mean they wont be using armour, and I doubt that they'll stop production in the end. Nevertheless, Israel wouldn't be the only country interested in new wheeled reconaissance vehicles.

Some new American vehicles:


There is no way Israel is going to stop using tanks... they said so aswell after the yom kippur war and that war was a hundred times worse to the armor brigades... Hezbollah destroyed 5 Merkava tanks.. in Yom Kippur war hundreds were lost in the first days... hundreds of crew man killed, there is no comparison really, i think the Merkava 4 project stopped because they wanted to divert funding to active protection system... Trophy from Rafael or Iron Fist from IMI, imagine if all 400 tanks had Trophy Systems in Lebanon.. sure.. IEDs would still destroy and kill some soldiers.. but their main weapon, anti tank missiles could have been reduced.. still, it will "end" as of now, in 4 years... still time to creat a few hundreds of Merkava 4. Israel still has probably a few hundreds of Merkava 4... remember... the IDF used only 400 tanks in Lebanon and 30,000 troops... it was too light, too late after the air bombing and too thin, god Olmert is an idiot .
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Old 10-12-2006, 01:48 PM
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the golan looks great,i like it reactive armor.
Olmets is an idiot,indeed.

btw here in "wolf" :

Last edited by kryp; 10-12-2006 at 01:51 PM..
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Old 10-12-2006, 02:36 PM
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This is an interesting concept, published by an American think tank leader and based off what had happened to Israeli Merkava Mk. Is and IIs in Lebanon in 1982. Mind you, the reactions in 1982 were almost the same as they are now, and look at what happened to that entire 'demise of the tank' theory. Regardless, this is really interesting. The tracks are designed outside the hull, so that IEDs will explode away from the crew, and that atenna is designed to be the eyes and ears of the tank commander and gunner, providing extra range. Personally, there are some things I don't like, but some things which are interesting.

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Old 10-12-2006, 11:56 PM
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Soy de muy cerca de Carabanchel, en concreto de Leganés, aunque ahora vivo en Alcorcón al lado de Cuatro Vientos (I´ve spent the morning watching the choppers preparing the formations for today's parade) My university time passed, although I went to the main Complutense campus in Moncloa I am a Politécnica guy.

I fully agree with everybody here Israel will not stop using tanks but if the Merkava line is closed the only options are either M1 Abrams or Leopards. To me the problem of Abrams is the lower degree of protection, the the gas turbine (I'm a Diesel engine believer ) and the fact that it is also used by potential enemies. I think Israel needs to keep the edge of the technology and coming back to depending from foreing sources could imply another Chieftain fiasco...

The Stryker has not been selected by the IDF although the main reason has been the cost. The IDF evaluated three vehicles, one was equipped with the Trophy system and another was used operationally in the Territories. In my opinion any armoured vehicle like the Stryker, is superior to any Humvee regardless the armor. My belief is that the Stryker at least has to be equivalent to a M113 in protection but faster, more agile and with a remote weapon station.

I think every army is interested in wheeled vehicles since they are fast, flexible and relatively low cost. IMO they are the ideal vehicles for LIC. The main issue is protection against RPG's and massive IED's. I like the Golan and Wildcat concepts, with modular level of protection, although at a first glance the automotive section seems weak for the higher degree of protection but we'll see
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Old 10-13-2006, 12:00 AM
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Well the concept looks like a Jagdpanzer or a Type S. The lack of a rotating turret is a mess. Perhaps an unmanned turret could be a solution for the long term. A long time ago I used to dream on a tank without a turret but with a big remote station with a GAU8 gun (the one in the A10) and lots of sensors
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Old 10-13-2006, 12:26 AM
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Wouldn't the non-turret tank be at a dissadvantage?

non-terret tanks should be left to artilery details.

Johns pic does look like a WW2 jagdpanzer.very odd that they show it in an urban setting were it would be at great disadvantage.
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Old 10-13-2006, 01:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andres
Soy de muy cerca de Carabanchel, en concreto de Leganés, aunque ahora vivo en Alcorcón al lado de Cuatro Vientos (I´ve spent the morning watching the choppers preparing the formations for today's parade) My university time passed, although I went to the main Complutense campus in Moncloa I am a Politécnica guy.

I fully agree with everybody here Israel will not stop using tanks but if the Merkava line is closed the only options are either M1 Abrams or Leopards. To me the problem of Abrams is the lower degree of protection, the the gas turbine (I'm a Diesel engine believer ) and the fact that it is also used by potential enemies. I think Israel needs to keep the edge of the technology and coming back to depending from foreing sources could imply another Chieftain fiasco...

The Stryker has not been selected by the IDF although the main reason has been the cost. The IDF evaluated three vehicles, one was equipped with the Trophy system and another was used operationally in the Territories. In my opinion any armoured vehicle like the Stryker, is superior to any Humvee regardless the armor. My belief is that the Stryker at least has to be equivalent to a M113 in protection but faster, more agile and with a remote weapon station.

I think every army is interested in wheeled vehicles since they are fast, flexible and relatively low cost. IMO they are the ideal vehicles for LIC. The main issue is protection against RPG's and massive IED's. I like the Golan and Wildcat concepts, with modular level of protection, although at a first glance the automotive section seems weak for the higher degree of protection but we'll see
to get M1 ?! what the fuk.. this tank has been destroyed by little RPG in iraq..

dude, look at the fact : there is no way that israel will buy another tank, no way.
we have a lot of merkava 3, and 4. the merkava progect wont stop. they will reach their goal to make 500 MK4. and i gusse they close to this number.

israel wont buy another tanks.. the merkava bulilt to fight in our place- golan and the desert, and its the best on this surface.
with the money of new tanks we can install our active protaction that can make even MK2 unbeatable.
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Old 10-13-2006, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andres
Soy de muy cerca de Carabanchel, en concreto de Leganés, aunque ahora vivo en Alcorcón al lado de Cuatro Vientos (I´ve spent the morning watching the choppers preparing the formations for today's parade) My university time passed, although I went to the main Complutense campus in Moncloa I am a Politécnica guy.
Maybe you know my uncle? Heliodor Catalán, he's [maybe was, I don't know if he took a job elsewhere. He was going to quit to work for Marinador in Castellón, but I think he cancelled that too] a professor at the politécnica - he's been a professor there since '87.

Quote:
Wouldn't the non-turret tank be at a dissadvantage?
It really depends. Given the fact that Israel is using their armour more as long range strike artillery and for urbant combat it might actually be a good idea, while they keep a few Merkavas to simply ensure that there will be trained crews for turreted designs. But, to be honest, I don't like the turretless concept either for a main battle tank. However, turretless vehicles are also cheaper.
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Old 10-19-2006, 07:02 PM
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The Swedes used the S-Tank for many years in the '60s and '70s. No turret, very low profile, extremely sloped front armor, and a suspension that could squat down to the ground to lower its profile even more. Great concept, but they went away from it. I understand that the suspension system was a maintenance nightmare.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stridsvagn_103

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Last edited by horatiusatthebridge; 10-19-2006 at 07:14 PM..
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Old 10-26-2006, 09:53 PM
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Apart from the maintenance issues the main problem with the S-Type was that it could not traverse the gun. It was a kind of Tank-hunter concept which in my view was out of date even in the 60's. The suspension was based on the Centurion (The Swedes also had Centurions at that time).

The Swedes happily switched to Leopards, like the Spanish army

Kryp, do not misunderstand me, I do not like the M1. The only thing I was pointing out is the fact that If they eventually close the Merkava production lines the only possible tanks Israel could get in the case of a large scale war would be either Leo's (they use the same transmission and engine as the Merkava 4) or M1A1's that Israel could get through FMS funding.
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Old 10-27-2006, 01:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snir View Post
There is no way Israel is going to stop using tanks... they said so aswell after the yom kippur war and that war was a hundred times worse to the armor brigades... Hezbollah destroyed 5 Merkava tanks.. in Yom Kippur war hundreds were lost in the first days... hundreds of crew man killed, there is no comparison really, i think the Merkava 4 project stopped because they wanted to divert funding to active protection system... Trophy from Rafael or Iron Fist from IMI, imagine if all 400 tanks had Trophy Systems in Lebanon.. sure.. IEDs would still destroy and kill some soldiers.. but their main weapon, anti tank missiles could have been reduced.. still, it will "end" as of now, in 4 years... still time to creat a few hundreds of Merkava 4. Israel still has probably a few hundreds of Merkava 4... remember... the IDF used only 400 tanks in Lebanon and 30,000 troops... it was too light, too late after the air bombing and too thin, god Olmert is an idiot .
you guys lost 5 tanks, damn, in the second gulf war we only lost 1 M1 abrams tank and thats only because the tank pilot got shot and drove it into a river,
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Old 10-27-2006, 02:12 PM
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...Yes but they had to fight against a well dug-in irregular enemy armed with the latest in AT weapons, with local population support and that had been preparing for the fight for years, with hidden weapons caches everywhere. Whilst the second gulf war was fought against a retreating demotivated regular army with no or very little popular support and to be honest after 12 years embargo they didn´t really had fire power (either in quantity or quality) that could be comparable with anything what the IDF tanks found. The number of M1A1 tank losses after the fall of the iraqui army and the fight against the different terrorist and insurgent groups is much, much higher. I think there is a post about this somewhere in the forum.
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Old 10-27-2006, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
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you guys lost 5 tanks, damn, in the second gulf war we only lost 1 M1 abrams tank and thats only because the tank pilot got shot and drove it into a river,

And your point is? you were fighting a regular army with tanks, air force and armor, easy to detect and destroy by air power, easy picking from the air, and unlike the terrain in Southern Lebanon, which fits guerrila fighting, Iraq wasnt the case... further more, Hezbollah had state of the art anti tank missiles including Kornets, and the most important thing, they were well trained since they have a couple of thousands fighters by the republican guard, according to my understanding HA has fired hundreds of missiles at Israeli Merkavas, the fact only 5 were totally destroyed out of 600 tanks operating in the South is a clear indication.

Condecending is not appreciated, while i hate to critisize the US, and there is no comparison between Iraq and Soutern Lebanon, HA is much more equiped and trained than AQ and the other factions in Iraq, what do they have, IEDs, light weapons and some spare RPGs?

AQ is expert of massive terrorist attack, but i dont recall them ever being experts when it came to guerrila warfare against conventionall armies, the Shia in Lebanon recived Iranian training, + they were fighting the IDF for almost 20 years, not arab, so ofcourse they will be more skilled.

If you want to go into comparison, fine, but atleast dont be so sarcastic with out further knowledge.
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Old 10-27-2006, 08:42 PM
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Look in another post under the title "Merkava" The US has lost over 80 M1A1 tanks to the insurgents.
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Old 10-28-2006, 04:15 AM
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Quote:
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Look in another post under the title "Merkava" The US has lost over 80 M1A1 tanks to the insurgents.
most of them were dammaged and salvged, and i was talking about the second gulf war, we deployed A2s
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Old 10-28-2006, 06:41 PM
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The same goes to the Mk4 the totally destroyed Merks were Mk2
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