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  #1  
Old 10-03-2009, 11:12 AM
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Default Proof for an Intelligent Creator and His purpose

According to science our universe has a beginning (search at “age of the universe” on "Pnas" (scientific journal)) and time is purely physical. Therefore there can be no such thing as time external to the physical universe. Timespace has a beginning.

It is a fundamental law of physics (causality) that every physical occurrence in the universe has a cause.
The fundamental laws of physics then require a cause of the universe ex nihilo (since timespace has a beginning); i.e., a Prime Cause Singularity that is non-dimensional and independent of timespace.

To conclude the above paragraphs:
Fact: No thing nor event in the known universe or laws of physics lacks a cause.
Assume: There is no Prime Cause (Creator / Singularity).
Ergo: There is no universe.
Fact: There is a universe.
Therefore: the statement that was assumed is proven to be a false statement by reduction ad absurdum (proof by disproof).
(Since "There is no Creator" is proven false, the opposite is true: There is a Creator.)

Being logically consistent (orderly), our (to say perfectly-orderly would be a tautology) orderly universe must mirror its Prime Cause / Singularity-Creator—Who must be Orderly; i.e. Perfect. An orderly—"not capricious," as Einstein put it—Creator (also implying Just), therefore, necessarily had an Intelligent Purpose in creating this universe and us within it and, being Just and Orderly, necessarily placed an explanation, a "Life's Instruction Manual," within the reach of His subjects—humankind.

It defies the orderliness (logic / mathematics) of both the universe and Perfection of its Creator to assert that humanity was (contrary to His Torah, see below) without any means of rapproachment until millennia after the first couple in recorded history as well as millennia after Abraham, Moses and the prophets. Therefore, the Creator's "Life's Instruction Manual" has been available to man at least since the beginning of recorded history. The only enduring document of this kind is the Torah —which, interestingly, translates to "Instruction" (not "law" as popularly alleged). (Source and further reading of how to relate to the Creator: Netzarim (you will find it with a search engine; “Netzarim Ra’anana Israel”).

The fact that the Creator is perfect implies that He isn’t self-contradictory. Therefore any religion, and all religions contradicts each other (otherwise they would be identical), that contradicts Torah is the antithesis to the Creator.

Anders Branderud
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Old 10-03-2009, 01:17 PM
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Quote "The fact that the Creator is perfect implies that He isn’t self-contradictory. Therefore any religion, and all religions contradicts each other (otherwise they would be identical), that contradicts Torah is the antithesis to the Creator."


The majority of religions are the result of man's search for understanding purpose in life. Some are the direct result individual egos and are all about elevating them, the founder, to near god like status. That was the reason Satin himself fell from his position and was cast out of Heaven as he thought to exalt himself to be like God. Is it any wonder that Satin would use the same deception against man that caused his own downfall? Some religions have been founded solely on the word of an angel of light. 2 Corinthians 11:14 (New American Standard Bible) 14 "No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light" as quoted in the Christian faith that came out of Judaism.

The Jewish Scriptures are on the other hand understood to be the words of Holy men under the direct inspiration of God.
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Last edited by Paparock; 10-03-2009 at 01:22 PM..
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Old 09-13-2010, 11:00 AM
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to put my two pennies worth in (as I usually do!), much of science assumes that since they know a lot about the physical universe and to them there is no proof of a creator then one cannot exist. I am a logical thinker (most of the time!) and if you read the first chapter of Genesis and of course turn off your 'the bible is symbolic' spam filter then what you find is that G-d existed before the physical universe and He then created time and the physical realm just for His creation (us). Look at it this way, if everything came into existence by pure chance then hoe do you explain natural laws such as gravity? How did gravity know that the apple needs to drop to the ground in order to germinate and not just float upwards? Trial and error?! no, because the apple tree would have died out before this due to the lack of germination of it's seed. To much in science is assumed or given-read a text book and what you'll find are statements such as..it can be assumed or it is given that, which in laymans terms means...right now this is what I think or this is just a guess but..... We should not just assume that because scientist A has a PHD in numptyology that he actually is looking at something objectively! Darwin and Dawkins both start from a point that says there is no god so this is my explanation for...most scientists are athiests and are not going to come up with evidence that says they are wrong (bad for their ego..or is it eggo these days!). once upon a time a scientist would use empirical evidence and peer review to achieve results, today it's all about look at what I've done and then they try to prove their wild claims after the big announcement. I read a story that said a scientist found a tooth and immediately he knew it was the oldest human tooth ever found! he hadn't even got it to lab yet never mind tested it! it turned out to be the tooth of an extinct pig! what an a$$!
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Old 09-13-2010, 12:52 PM
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Shalom.

For me the greatest proof of a Divine Creator with a Divine Purpose is (besides the word of G*d) the groups of scientists *TRYING* to create life. Let's see, you have a group of very intelligent beings in very carefully controlled environments set up to achieve a specific goal and who use specific processes to try and achieve that goal. *IF* scientists ever did manage to create a life form it would be incontrovertible proof of a supreme Divine Intelligence for the creation of life as we now know it. People are so blind *NOT* to see that!

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Old 09-13-2010, 02:13 PM
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Shalom.

For me the greatest proof of a Divine Creator with a Divine Purpose is (besides the word of G*d) the groups of scientists *TRYING* to create life. Let's see, you have a group of very intelligent beings in very carefully controlled environments set up to achieve a specific goal and who use specific processes to try and achieve that goal. *IF* scientists ever did manage to create a life form it would be incontrovertible proof of a supreme Divine Intelligence for the creation of life as we now know it. People are so blind *NOT* to see that!

Cheers from Peter
EXACTLY! well said.

I am a human being, I am articulate and can express my emotions or talk about complex issues such as the Creator or the vastness of space. I can appreciate music and art, I can cry at soppy films or if qualified I could go into space with NASA. I can make wine from grapes and butter my toast, I can look under a microscope at microscopic organisms. I can use a PC and a mobile phone and if I wanted to I could climb the highest mountains just for fun! ........and monkeys can't!!!!! NUFF SAID!!!! Oh! and BTW I can commune with the Holy Spirit and understand those of the mysteries of G-d that have been revealed to me as can all followers of the one true G-d! monkeys on the other hand like to play with their poop!
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I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence,


"I ask then, has God rejected His people? By no means! God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. For the gifts and call of God are irrevocable."
(Romans 11:1,2,29)
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Old 04-20-2012, 12:25 AM
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From Dr. Gerald Schroeder:

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Old 07-20-2012, 04:08 AM
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Default ‘How do atheists find meaning in life?’



The correspondent was blunt: “Why don’t you atheists just go out and kill yourselves right now?”

True, most Christians phrase it rather more delicately, but atheists are regularly informed by a certain kind of believer that our lives can have no value if we do not believe in their God. What is the point, they ask, of being kind or loving, caring about suffering or doing anything at all, if one day we just die?

It is true that in the absence of a divine plan our lives have no externally determined purpose: an individual is not born for the purpose of becoming a physician or creating a spectacular work of art or digging a well in an arid corner of Africa. But are the sick less cured, the pleasure to the art-lover less intense, or the thirst of parched villagers less slaked, simply because a man sought his own purpose rather than following a diktat from on high? Do we really need a deity to tell us that a life spent curing cancer is more worthwhile than one spent drinking in the gutter?

Why should we not find satisfaction in alleviating suffering or injustice, just because we’re all going to die one day? The very fact that this life is all we have makes it even more important to do everything possible to reduce the suffering caused by poverty, disease, injustice and ignorance. To describe such attempts as meaningless is to say that avoidable suffering does not matter, hardly a moral stance.

Many Christians claim we have no reason to care about others if there is no God. But this is itself a religious claim, arising from the theological concept of Original Sin, which declares humankind fallen and corrupt. We can safely ignore it, for in reality we do not need childish stories of eternal reward or damnation to coerce us into being good: research shows that the least religious societies have the lowest incidence of social ills, including crime and violence. Healthy humans have empathy built in, and the explanations for this lie in psychology and evolutionary biology: no gods required.

Life cannot be meaningless so long as we have the capacity to affect the well-being of ourselves and others. For true meaninglessness, we would need heaven.

In the state of permanent, perfect bliss that is the very definition of heaven, ‘making a difference’ is ruled out. If the difference made an improvement, the previous state could not have been perfect. If it made things worse, the result would not be perfect. In heaven, neither is possible. Even being reunited with loved ones could not add one jot to their bliss or yours, for heaven would be, by definition, a state that could not be improved on.
Just consider for a moment the hellish pointlessness of heaven. At least in our real existence our actions have an effect, for better or worse, and it is therefore worth trying to get them right. In an eternal life where we can have no effect whatsoever, we might as well be dead.

If you have ever claimed that your life would have no meaning if it weren’t for your faith in God, do you really believe your family and friends have no worth in their own right? Can you really not see the point in striving to protect and nurture your children, even if there is no eternal life? Really?
If you do, then it is you, not atheists, who debase humanity, and it is Christianity, not atheism, that diminishes the real value and meaning of life.

We atheists find purpose in the world as it is, and in our real lives; we see living beings as valuable in their own right, deserving of our concern and compassion simply because they share our capacity for pain and pleasure. It is hard to imagine a position less moral, less conducive to empathy, than this inherently warped and uncharitable view of humanity proposed by Christianity.
This is a perverse view of reality. After all, if the only valuable thing about existence is that God gave it to us, then that must mean the gift is not worth having in its own right. God’s creation would be the equivalent of a shapeless, baggy sweater of dubious color that you would never willingly wear but which you nevertheless can’t bring yourself to throw away because it was a gift from Granny. This approach in effect says you’re grateful for God’s gift, but you don’t actually like it very much; that, were it not for your belief that there’ll be an eternity in heaven to compensate you for having had to endure it, you can see no reason why you’d ever want it.

Theistic religion reduces life to something that has no value other than as the creation of an imagined deity. It decrees that purpose and meaning can only be found in being that deity’s puppet, having no purpose but its purpose and no value other than as its handiwork. Theistic religion looks on all that is best and most noble in human impulse and endeavour and dismisses it as meaningless and worthless --or worse: corrupt --unless done in the name of God. It is time to abandon this baseless worldview. It is time to reject theistic religion and start viewing ourselves and others with real dignity, as beings with value in our own right and not just as the distorted shadows of a fictional creator.
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Old 07-20-2012, 04:12 AM
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Atheist Wager:
You should live your life and try to make the world a better place for your being in it, whether or not you believe in god. If there is no god, you have lost nothing and will be remembered fondly by those you left behind. If there is a benevolent god, he will judge you on your merits and not just on whether or not you believed in him.

Pascal's Wager:
The philosophy uses the following logic (excerpts from Pensées, part III, §233):
"God is, or He is not"
A Game is being played... where heads or tails will turn up.
According to reason, you can defend either of the propositions.
You must wager. (It's not optional.)
Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing.
Wager, then, without hesitation that He is. (...) There is here an infinity of an infinitely happy life to gain, a chance of gain against a finite number of chances of loss, and what you stake is finite. And so our proposition is of infinite force, when there is the finite to stake in a game where there are equal risks of gain and of loss, and the infinite to gain.
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Old 07-20-2012, 04:31 AM
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I believe in GD because many times I should be dead, but some how I lived! I am not anymore special than you, there is a divine purpose and I have not fulfilled it.
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Old 07-20-2012, 05:20 AM
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I believe in GD because many times I should be dead, but some how I lived! I am not anymore special than you, there is a divine purpose and I have not fulfilled it.
no offence, Ishmael, but it has always made me think that why is it that some people experience divine intervention in their darkest hours, while some do not, even though both come out of it stronger than before. Can it be simply because the people who experience it were looking for it?
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Old 07-20-2012, 05:40 AM
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I believe in God, because I feel him deep inside my soul. I dont need science to tell me anything. I am myself kind of a scientist and very pro science! But science cannot as yet understand God, yet it will come! I am not waiting and I have seen Gods work and his hand work to protect me many many times, so in all honesty I recognize his power! God tests us also and life itself is a lesson, so we cannot escape the darkness of hard lives, we all have to live them, get sick, bad people, ill luck, one way or another life isnt easy, no one can pretend it is! When our soul is ripe we can then move on. Yes this means that a person who dies may still have unfinished business at time of death, ghosts or re incarnation might explain there is stuff to finish!

I think we should all be free to have our own set of beliefs. I have many atheist friends and if they have good values thats all that counts for me. Religions and sects will never agree on the "right way" so I wont even delve into that subject. Christianity is broken into so many different paths, each one claiming "they know" ! The same is true in Hinduism and even Judaism!

I say, what science cant proove, is only because they havent discovered it yet! lol
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Old 07-20-2012, 06:04 AM
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I believe in God, because I feel him deep inside my soul. I dont need science to tell me anything. I am myself kind of a scientist and very pro science! But science cannot as yet understand God, yet it will come! I am not waiting and I have seen Gods work and his hand work to protect me many many times, so in all honesty I recognize his power! God tests us also and life itself is a lesson, so we cannot escape the darkness of hard lives, we all have to live them, get sick, bad people, ill luck, one way or another life isnt easy, no one can pretend it is! When our soul is ripe we can then move on. Yes this means that a person who dies may still have unfinished business at time of death, ghosts or re incarnation might explain there is stuff to finish!

I think we should all be free to have our own set of beliefs. I have many atheist friends and if they have good values thats all that counts for me. Religions and sects will never agree on the "right way" so I wont even delve into that subject. Christianity is broken into so many different paths, each one claiming "they know" ! The same is true in Hinduism and even Judaism!

I say, what science cant proove, is only because they havent discovered it yet! lol
one question: I agree, belief in God is a very personal choice, but what people say they believe in God because they feel connected to God or experience his presence. If existence of God is a fact, should it not be there for all to accept/experience/verify?

Religion is definitely a man's creation I say, so any argument for or against the existence of a supreme being based on religion is invalid IMO. Occam's razor!

I have no issue with the other person's set of theistic personal beliefs but do want to know the truth. Albert Einstein himself was a believer and compared to him we are mere mortals with strong scientific interests, but that should not deny us the right to seek hardcore evidence to suggest on God's existence either way.
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Old 07-20-2012, 07:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cute_assassin View Post
one question: I agree, belief in God is a very personal choice, but what people say they believe in God because they feel connected to God or experience his presence. If existence of God is a fact, should it not be there for all to accept/experience/verify?

Religion is definitely a man's creation I say, so any argument for or against the existence of a supreme being based on religion is invalid IMO. Occam's razor!

I have no issue with the other person's set of theistic personal beliefs but do want to know the truth. Albert Einstein himself was a believer and compared to him we are mere mortals with strong scientific interests, but that should not deny us the right to seek hardcore evidence to suggest on God's existence either way.

religion is the invention of man and his striving to gain understanding as PapaRock stated. G-d isn't interested in our religion-the adhesion to a strict set of rules but wants an intimate relationship with each person. and as with each relationship a set of rules for the benefit for both parties are established, these are not the rules of religion but a benchmark of what is to be expected by both parties-if you are married then you'll know what i'm talking about! yes, athiest people are good people and live worthy lifes, i myself was once an atheist. but against what do we measure our goodness? if against the man standing next to you then you may well be of excellent character but if you measure up against G-d then you will fall short.
sadly 'religion' does a very poor job of explaining itself and uses a language that is both 'romanticised' and sometimes hard to grasp. but G-d has said that "all who call upon the name of the LORD will be saved" so it is possible for anyone to experience this deeper understanding of the presence of G-d. even when i was an athiest i had a deep feeling that G-d would never let me down and never let me go, it is something i have known all my life. basically if you imagine a child learning to walk, the parent will hold that child and guide its footsteps but in order for the child to truly learn it must be set free from its parents hands and walk towards the other parent, G-d has done so much for us but at some stage we must take that step towards G-d. you cannot experince G-d without coming towards him, yes Ismael knows the presence of G-d and therefore knows how to see that hand upon his life but many athiests also have been taken care of by a hidden benefactor without ever realising G-d's presence. but to really know G-d is to give your life to him and live with him. after all you cannot be married without getting married and then living with and moving forward with that marriage partner. we are not 'special' as some religious types would have you believe but merely have known and recognised that G-d exists and we are the better for having him in our lives. G-d is waiting for all of us to call on him.
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I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence,


"I ask then, has God rejected His people? By no means! God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. For the gifts and call of God are irrevocable."
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Old 07-21-2012, 02:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cute_assassin View Post
one question: I agree, belief in God is a very personal choice, but what people say they believe in God because they feel connected to God or experience his presence. If existence of God is a fact, should it not be there for all to accept/experience/verify?

Religion is definitely a man's creation I say, so any argument for or against the existence of a supreme being based on religion is invalid IMO. Occam's razor!

I have no issue with the other person's set of theistic personal beliefs but do want to know the truth. Albert Einstein himself was a believer and compared to him we are mere mortals with strong scientific interests, but that should not deny us the right to seek hardcore evidence to suggest on God's existence either way.
LoL if it were that simple, the whole world would be for Israel, against jihad, enjoy ice cream (huh lol)

Scientists are battling out scientific facts for goodness sakes. I have been part of alot of ancient astronaut theories for example and that is science and yet mainstream science refuses to accept these discoveries.

People, be they scientists or believers or other will at the end of the day believe in what they want. They can guise it in so called "logic" but once tested with facts, you often see them stray from the logic argument to the "it hasnt been proven beyond a doubt" argument.

Truth is both sides, or all sides do similar. I dont take everything from the Bible literally some of it is just silly and when challenged some Bible believers just get mad yet it is for me a complete ignorance on all sides that makes people not understand, but not just ignorance but our own human state of resisting what we dont want to believe in. Which brings us back to your question:

"If existence of God is a fact, should it not be there for all to accept/experience/verify?"

Its actually all around us, God just hasnt bothered copyrighting it

Peace bro!
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Old 07-23-2012, 12:50 PM
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thanks JnJ & NR, these issues do bother sometimes, and its nice to have a deeper sense of where those who believe in God exactly stand or what kind of virtues they have towards such an "entity"!
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Old 07-23-2012, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by cute_assassin View Post
thanks JnJ & NR, these issues do bother sometimes, and its nice to have a deeper sense of where those who believe in God exactly stand or what kind of virtues they have towards such an "entity"!
Hey man no problem. Discussing such things among friends is what helps us get to understand eachother better!
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Old 07-24-2012, 04:45 AM
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I believe in intelligent creation, I believe in G-d also at a personal level, but I don't believe in the concept of "Creator" as espoused by organised religion.
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A war generating battles is ‘curse’ not ‘mirth’.

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Old 07-24-2012, 05:03 AM
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I believe in intelligent creation, I believe in G-d also at a personal level, but I don't believe in the concept of "Creator" as espoused by organised religion.
oh come on Knaur! Has NZ changed you so much so fast! last I checked you were agnostic! dont abandon hope!!!
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Old 07-24-2012, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by cute_assassin View Post
oh come on Knaur! Has NZ changed you so much so fast! last I checked you were agnostic! dont abandon hope!!!
he realised he was in heaven when he saw all the sheep in NZ
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Old 07-24-2012, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by cute_assassin View Post
oh come on Knaur! Has NZ changed you so much so fast! last I checked you were agnostic! dont abandon hope!!!
But I am Agnostic! I neither confirm to nor deny the existence of religious claims if I were to specifiy my religious belief system, I couldn't point out to any specific doctrine or even claim to be a "believer" as the term is widely understood. But yes, am not a nihilist either.


Perhaps the correct term is confused but I ll settle for Agnostic.
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