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  #41  
Old 05-12-2008, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEW RON View Post
Political games are played by every country in the world,not just by America.

Until now the only muslim allies Israel has is Turkey and Egypt, an maybe a few others, other muslim countries have not given their final word that they will recognize a Jewish State ,actually every Islamic country continues to support a Palestinian State with Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine. Therefore I dont see what kind of allies they will make.

Hamas gets most of their weapons from Egypt. So the friendship with Egypy has brought plenty of negative things cause many Egyptians believe that Israel does not have the right to exist.

Turkey has been a strong ally ,but with the democratic elections of an Islamist Govt I dont know for sure which way Turkey will go and for how long.

So as far as muslim allies for Israel I dont see that being a positive thing for Israel they will only pressure Israel to compromise and recognize terrorist organizations like Hamas.
You are seeing the Muslim world limited only to ME. Have you ever asked yourself what Israel is doing in Azerbaijan? Have you ever asked yourself what US is doing in Central Asia countries?

Man, you are playing in our turf. You both Israel and USA should give some carrots to Turks. The countries I mentioned are my brother countries. If we would become an Islamist country, you both would be cut off from your future.
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  #42  
Old 05-13-2008, 12:46 AM
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If you read the previous posts mde in this forum you will see that the threat is not just from muslim countries in the ME, but everywhere like Indonesia or even faraway countries like Morrocco or Algeria.

Remember I dont consider every muslim a terrorist, that would be untrue and unjust.I just consider all those who try to folow Islam properly in danger of supporting or becoming Terrorists. Its a fact that Islam has too much anti Jewish rethoric.

I know muslims who are far from being terrorists, I am prepared to recognize this too.
However they are ussually not following Islam as the Sharia tells them too. We call them moderates or to Wahabi or Taliban muslims "bad muslims" t may be devout but chose to disregard parts of the Koran or Hadiths that clearly call for the death of Infidels including Jews and Christians. For if they followed Islam to the letter they would have been Jew haters by now. Actually many of them dont even understand arabic they just recite verses from the Koran without even understanding what they mean. I guess that has saved many of those that you said that are not from arabic speaking ME countries.
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  #43  
Old 05-13-2008, 04:39 PM
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Do you think this threat is aimed only at Jews? I see problems differently. I see a dominant power which is trying to dictate its culture to the world. in 1990 Communism collapsed thanks to Reagan.

Now today's problem for West is Muslims. They resist to accept this rule. Let me tell you how Muslims feel: You cannot open a porn shop in a Muslim neighboorhood. Or women cannot wear attractive dresses in public. Muslim communities cannot allow "anti-social" people to live among them (for example, rapists, gays, honorless ppl "deserve" to die) and many more things...

You see your western mentality does not fit into Muslim society. But this is part of my culture. US tried to bring democracy to Iraq and Afghanistan. We are seeing what happened. Moderate Iraq became radicalized.

Even the Superpower USA does not have that power to shape Islamic world. These action-reaction-reaction-reaction..... chain makes ppl more fanatic in their attitudes and actions. I cant see an end for this problem. It is becoming a cronic illness in which both sides are trying to annihilate other side totally.

Muslims have the upper hand here. I understand why Jews feel so much pressure. I have read some suicidal posts in many forums. There will be no nukes. That is crazy. Without nukes Muslims' aim will be to isolate Israel which will force Israel to drop its guard. Muslims are using soft power, while Israel and its ally USA are using weapon power which is exhausting their side.

Looking from this point of view, Muslims can resist such aggressions long time because of their large population and high birth rate. These were my personal thoughts, not inspired by some sources.
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  #44  
Old 06-23-2008, 03:12 PM
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The way that Jews have nurtured the land of Israel and made it blossom as a rose is symbolic of how one would nurture a long lost love that has come back into their lives. This subject has been discussed in ancient Hebrew writings that are thousands of years old. The main antagonist of Israel today did not even exist at the time that these views were given, yet the land of Israel has responded to the return of the Jews just as the ancient writers predicted. The land of Israel has gone from meagerness to abundance in a few decades. It is clear to see who the real heirs are, and who never really cared for the land anyway. Islam seeks to force its brand of tyranny upon the world, while Israel (Jews and Judaism) just seem to want to make the world a better place for everyone to live in, regardless of race, religion or country of origin. It is very easy for this goy to see the difference.
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  #45  
Old 12-27-2010, 04:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by New Ron View Post
If you read the previous posts mde in this forum you will see that the threat is not just from muslim countries in the ME, but everywhere like Indonesia or even faraway countries like Morrocco or Algeria.

Remember I dont consider every muslim a terrorist, that would be untrue and unjust.I just consider all those who try to folow Islam properly in danger of supporting or becoming Terrorists. Its a fact that Islam has too much anti Jewish rethoric.

I know muslims who are far from being terrorists, I am prepared to recognize this too.
However they are ussually not following Islam as the Sharia tells them too. We call them moderates or to Wahabi or Taliban muslims "bad muslims" t may be devout but chose to disregard parts of the Koran or Hadiths that clearly call for the death of Infidels including Jews and Christians. For if they followed Islam to the letter they would have been Jew haters by now. Actually many of them dont even understand arabic they just recite verses from the Koran without even understanding what they mean. I guess that has saved many of those that you said that are not from arabic speaking ME countries.


This is BULL****.
You know what,I studied all this when I was in my 9th grade.I study 'surah Al-Ahzab' of Quran at my School in Pakistan.This chapter of Quran contains verses about fighting with Jews/Christian etc.I perfectly remember I studied it with 'Urdu' translation.Urdu is Pakistan's national language.We didn't just studied ,we Discussed it with our teacher.We study what was the context of this (any) verse,Why it was revealed,is this verse general or not etc.So,Muslims are NOT commanded to kill Jews etc etc.People take the verse or hadith out of its context,without its explanation etc and try to show that Islam is against Jews,Christians etc and Islam orders to kill them..WHICH IS PURE HORSE CRAP.

If you find sometime,go to any respected and knowledgeable Rabbi and ask him about Islam.Islam and Judaism are like cousin religions.Muslims believe in all jewish prophets.We are die-hard monotheists like Jews.One more thing all ignorants (of Islam) should know :

MUSLIMS ARE NOT 'MOON-WORSHIPPERS'.WE DON'T WORSHIP Moon-god.WE WORSHIP THE GOD WHO CREATED MOON AND ALL UNIVERSE.
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  #46  
Old 12-27-2010, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auzer View Post
[/b]
... MUSLIMS ARE NOT 'MOON-WORSHIPPERS'.WE DON'T WORSHIP Moon-god.WE WORSHIP THE GOD WHO CREATED MOON AND ALL UNIVERSE.
I understand that Muslims don't worship a moon deity, per se; however, the deity that Muslims call allah is a vestige of the pre-Islamic, Arabian pantheon of pagan deities. Islam is in fact just another monotheistic pagan religion. The deity of the Jews (Abraham, Issac, and Israel) is not now, nor ever was, nor ever will be the pagan deity of Islam, known as allah. This is why the Jews in Arabia would never accept Muhammad as a true prophet of their G-D. They considered Muhammad a false prophet because he came to them with false teachings from a 'strange and foreign god.' The deity that appeared to the whole nation of Israel at Sinai was not the pagan deity that Muslims call allah. Islam's deity is an evil djinn (principality) that was cast out paradise by HaShem for disobedience; and allah will never be allowed to return. The deity allah was created and is not a creator, but a great deceiver who has deceived over a billion humans. Fortunately, many Muslims in the ME are starting to see the light and are leaving the darkness of this pagan cult, even at risk to their own lives.
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  #47  
Old 12-27-2010, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auzer View Post
[/b]

This is BULL****.
You know what,I studied all this when I was in my 9th grade.I study 'surah Al-Ahzab' of Quran at my School in Pakistan.This chapter of Quran contains verses about fighting with Jews/Christian etc.I perfectly remember I studied it with 'Urdu' translation.Urdu is Pakistan's national language.We didn't just studied ,we Discussed it with our teacher.We study what was the context of this (any) verse,Why it was revealed,is this verse general or not etc.So,Muslims are NOT commanded to kill Jews etc etc.People take the verse or hadith out of its context,without its explanation etc and try to show that Islam is against Jews,Christians etc and Islam orders to kill them..WHICH IS PURE HORSE CRAP.

If you find sometime,go to any respected and knowledgeable Rabbi and ask him about Islam.Islam and Judaism are like cousin religions.Muslims believe in all jewish prophets.We are die-hard monotheists like Jews.One more thing all ignorants (of Islam) should know :

MUSLIMS ARE NOT 'MOON-WORSHIPPERS'.WE DON'T WORSHIP Moon-god.WE WORSHIP THE GOD WHO CREATED MOON AND ALL UNIVERSE.
The ONLY horse crap are the muslims and Turks like you who HATE Jews so much, you didnt want them to have their own state on Land that God almighty gave them.

Sadly your Qu'ran & Hadith does have anti Jewish sluring, calling Jews Pigs, apes, how do you think a muslim who reads this feels little by little about Jews,unless all muslims were saints, which they are not, they would not be able to think for themselves, look at you, all you come to do is attack us, but you dont care for Israel, as those muslim before you have done on this thread! Have you seen how the Islamist AKP party behaves toward Israel, as opposed to the previous secular govts have?
Coincidence that those who follow Islam to the letter are always very anti Jews, and those muslims who dont follow Islam to the letter are always more accepting?

You better watch your mouth over here, this is an ISRAELI MILITARY FORUM! You can send your flotillas and your running mouths to Israel, and your HAMas and hezbollahs, and PLO against the infidels all you want, but they will ALL be destroyed one after the other!
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Last edited by New Ron; 12-27-2010 at 03:13 PM..
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  #48  
Old 12-27-2010, 05:51 PM
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Exclamation What does Islam teach about Jews in reality?

Quote:
Originally Posted by snc128 View Post
well, you would know why others were so keen on attacking Jews! I do not know but always have wondered.
but for today, hope you leave this victim role soon.



well, you'd better indicate they are not muslims but terrorists. otherwise, being a muslim, I and millions of innocent muslims feel offended. however, if you really meant to say muslim for those who terrorize and kidnap others, then that is OK.you made me open my eyes big and wide about your thoughts against me! I am being accused becasue of a crime I did not commiit.

you see, how dangerous are these kind of generalizations. (muslim vs jew)



you first should protect Israel from your fears. this aggression is too much for mankind!


that is enough for me under this thread for now.

snc128 do you recognize Muhammad as the perfect example of a Muslim life lived and follow the teachungs of Muhaamad as a Muslim? Do you believe the following teachings of Muhammad? If so why are you here in this forum? This is after all a pro-Israel military forum; if you are not comfortble here you are welcome to leave at your pleasure. If you ever attack another moderator the way you did above I will assist your departure!

Ishaq:364"Muslims, take not Jews and Christians as friends. Whoever protects them becomes one of them, they become diseased, and will earn a similar fate."

Bukhari:V9B84N59"Allah's Apostle said, 'I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah." Whoever says this will save his property and his life from me.'"

Qur'an:9:5"Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."

Bukhari:V4B52N177"Allah's Apostle said, 'The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."'"





I suggest you read - Religious Tolerance: Islam vs. Other Religions - http://israelmilitary.net/showthread.php?t=7664 covering the actions of the "Religion of Peace" in action around the world daily.


Understanding the Arab-Israeli Conflict

Compiled by Paul Bogdanor




“Kill the Jews wherever you find them. This pleases God, history and religion.”
- Haj Amin al-Husseini, Mufti of Jerusalem
(Radio Berlin, March 1, 1944; quoted in Robert Wistrich, Muslim Anti-Semitism: A Clear and Present Danger [American Jewish Committee, 2002], p47)

“This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades.”
- Azzam Pasha, Secretary-General of the Arab League
(BBC, May 15, 1948)

“If the Jewish state becomes a fact, and this is realized by the Arab peoples, they will drive the Jews who live in their midst into the sea… Even if we are beaten now in Palestine, we will never submit. We will never accept the Jewish state... But for politics, the Egyptian army alone, or volunteers of the Muslim Brotherhood, could have destroyed the Jews.”
- Hassan al-Banna, Muslim Brotherhood founder
(New York Times, August 2, 1948)

“In demanding the return of the Palestinian refugees the Arabs mean their return as masters, not slaves, or to put it more clearly – the intention is the extermination of Israel.”
- Salah al-Din, Egyptian Foreign Minister
(Al-Misri, Egypt, October 11, 1949; quoted in Harris O. Schoenberg, A Mandate for Terror: The United Nations and the PLO [Shapolsky Books, 1989], p239)

“Israel, to the Arab world, is like a cancer to the human body, and the only way of remedy is to uproot it just like a cancer… Had we united then [in 1948] Israel would not have come into existence. Israel is a serious wound in the Arab world body, and we cannot endure the pain of this wound forever. We don’t have the patience to see Israel remain occupying part of Palestine for long… We Arabs total about 50,000,000. Why don’t we sacrifice 10,000,000 of our number to live in pride and self-respect?”
- King Saud of Saudi Arabia
(New York Times, January 10, 1954)

“Is not Israel’s isolation a natural result of her racial artificiality, a patchwork society of German, Polish, East European recruits, of her cultural and political singularity, and to the fact that she does not belong, and should not belong to that part of the Arab world upon which she was imposed by outside force? … No international intrigue, no force whatsoever can oblige the Arabs to accept the intruders whose hands are still stained with the blood of other Arabs…”
- M. Samir Ahmed, Egyptian Embassy Press Secretary
(Letter, Washington Post, September 20, 1955)

“We are awaiting aggression by Israel and any supporters of Israel. We will make it a decisive battle and get rid of Israel once and for all… This is the dream of every Arab.”
- Gamal Abdel Nasser, President of Egypt
(Washington Post, July 27, 1959)

“If the refugees return to Israel – Israel will cease to exist.”
- Gamal Abdel Nasser
(Zuercher Woche, West Germany, September 1, 1961; quoted in Harris O. Schoenberg, A Mandate for Terror: The United Nations and the PLO [Shapolsky Books, 1989], p239)

“... collective Arab military preparations, when they are completed, will constitute the ultimate practical means for the final liquidation of Israel.”
- Arab League
(Summit Declaration, January 1964; quoted in Avi Shlaim, The Iron Wall: Israel and the Arab World [Penguin, 2001], p230)

“Our path to Palestine will not be covered with a red carpet or with yellow sand. Our path to Palestine will be covered with blood… In order that we may liberate Palestine, the Arab nation must unite, the Arab armies must unite, and a unified plan of action must be established.”
- Gamal Abdel Nasser
(Pre-election speech, 1965; quoted in Efraim Karsh, Islamic Imperialism: A History [Yale University Press, 2007], p162)

“The day on which the Arab hope for the return of the refugees to Palestine is realized will be the day of Israel’s extermination.”
- Abdallah al-Yafi, Lebanese Prime Minister
(Al-Hayat, April 29, 1966; quoted in Harris O. Schoenberg, A Mandate for Terror: The United Nations and the PLO [Shapolsky Books, 1989], p239)

“We have decided to drench this land with our blood, to oust you, aggressors, and throw you into the sea for good.”
- Syrian government broadcast
(Radio Damascus, May 24, 1966; quoted in Walter Laqueur, The Road to War [Pelican Books, 1969], p59)

“We will carry on operations until Israel has been eliminated.”
- Syrian government broadcast
(Radio Damascus, January 16, 1967; quoted in Michael B. Oren, Six Days of War [Oxford University Press, 2002], p42)

“We challenge you, Eshkol, to try all your weapons. Put them to the test; they will spell Israel’s death and annihilation.”
- Egyptian government broadcast
(Voice of the Arabs, May 16, 1967; quoted in Walter Laqueur, The Road to War [Pelican Books, 1969], p82)

“The Zionist barrack in Palestine is about to collapse and be destroyed… Every one of the hundred million Arabs has been living for the past nineteen years on one hope - to live to see the day Israel is liquidated… There is no life, no peace nor hope for the gangs of Zionism to remain in the occupied land.”
- Egyptian government broadcast
(Voice of the Arabs, May 18, 1967; quoted in Walter Laqueur, The Road to War [Pelican Books, 1969], p105)

“It is our chance, Arabs, to direct a blow of death and annihilation to Israel and all its presence in our Holy Land. It is a war for which we are waiting and in which we shall triumph.”
- Egyptian government broadcast
(Voice of the Arabs, May 19, 1967; quoted in Walter Laqueur, The Road to War [Pelican Books, 1969], p105)

“[Syrian forces are ready for] the liberation operation to explode Zionist existence.”
- Hafez Assad, Syrian Defence Minister
(New York Times, May 21, 1967)

“... the time has come to get rid of the Zionist cancer in Palestine.”
- Taher Yahia, Vice-Premier of Iraq
(New York Times, May 21, 1967)

“Fight, Arabs. Let them know that we shall hang the last imperialist soldier with the entrails of the last Zionist.”
- Syrian government broadcast
(Radio Damascus, May 23, 1967; quoted in Walter Laqueur, The Road to War [Pelican Books, 1969], p59)

“Israel lacks the strength to endure against the Arabs even for one hour. The Arab people’s decision is unfaltering: to wipe Israel off the face of the map…”
- Syrian government broadcast
(Radio Damascus, May 23, 1967; quoted in Moshe Shemesh, “Did Shuqayri Call For ‘Throwing the Jews into the Sea?” Israel Studies, Summer 2003, p79)

“We knew that by closing the Gulf of Aqaba it might mean war with Israel. [If war comes] it will be total and the objective will be to destroy Israel.”
- Gamal Abdel Nasser
(Washington Post, May 27, 1967)

“The hour has come to end Israel’s existence.”
- Sheikh Ahmed Kaftaro, Grand Mufti of Syria
(New York Times, May 28, 1967)

“With the closing of the Straits [of Tiran], Israel faces two possibilities, both of which are blood-soaked: either it will die by strangulation in the wake of the Arab military and economic blockade, or it will die by shooting from the Arab forces surrounding it in the south, north and east.”
- Egyptian government broadcast
(Radio Cairo, May 27, 1967; quoted in Moshe Shemesh, “Did Shuqayri Call For ‘Throwing the Jews into the Sea?” Israel Studies, Summer 2003, p79)

“We shall destroy Israel and those behind Israel.”
- General Tahar Zbiri, Algerian Chief of Staff
(New York Times, May 28, 1967)

“Whoever survives will stay in Palestine, but in my opinion, no-one will remain alive.”
- Ahmed Shuqayri, PLO founder
(Al-Yawm, Lebanon, June 3, 1967; quoted in Moshe Shemesh, “Did Shuqayri Call For ‘Throwing the Jews into the Sea?’” Israel Studies, Summer 2003, p72)

“Strike the enemy’s settlements, turn them into dust, pave the Arab roads with the skulls of Jews.”
- Hafez Assad
(Michael B. Oren, Six Days of War [Oxford University Press, 2002], p293)

“By God, if it is decreed that we have to wade through seven seas of blood and that the whole region has to sink in blood to get revenge for its honor and dignity, then we will wade through the seas of blood.”
- Syrian government broadcast
(Radio Damascus, June 11, 1967, quoted in Walter Laqueur, The Road to War [Pelican Books, 1969], p118)

“The operation of liberation is not merely removing an imperialistic base, but what is more important: the extermination of a society; not only is military defeat the aim in the Palestinian war of liberation, but the liquidation of the Zionist character of the occupied land, whether in manpower or in society.”
- Fatah statement
(Liberation of the Occupied Lands and the Method of Struggle Against Direct Colonialism, September 1967; quoted in Y. Harkabi, The Palestinian Covenant and its Meaning [Vallentine Mitchell, 1979], pp47-8)

“The real Palestine problem is the existence of Israel in Palestine. As long as a Zionist existence remains even in a tiny part of it - that will mean occupation. The important thing is to liquidate the Israel occupation, and there is no difference between the territories lately occupied and those occupied before.”
- Egyptian government broadcast
(Radio Cairo, March 17, 1968, quoted in Gil Carl AlRoy, “Do the Arabs Want Peace?” Commentary, February 1974)

“The partition of Palestine in 1947 and the establishment of the State of Israel are entirely illegal, regardless of the passage of time…” (Article 19); “The Balfour Declaration, the Mandate for Palestine and everything that has been based upon them, are deemed null and void.” (Article 20); “… the liberation of Palestine will destroy the Zionist and imperialist presence…” (Article 22).
- PLO Covenant
(Palestine National Council, July 1-17, 1968; reprinted Y. Harkabi, The Palestinian Covenant and its Meaning [Vallentine Mitchell, 1979])

“There is no room in the Middle East for Arab nationalism and Zionist nationalism… in the Middle East there is no room for the Arab nation and Israel…”
- Mohammed Heikal, Nasser’s adviser and spokesman
(Al-Ahram, February 21, 1969; quoted in Yehoshafat Harkabi, Palestinians and Israel [Keter Books, 1974], p1)

“We must fight our way to victory on a sea of blood and a horizon of fire.”
- Gamal Abdel Nasser
(Wall Street Journal, November 14, 1969)

“I believe that we now have a duty to remove the aggressor from our land and to regain the Arab territory occupied by the Israelis. We can then engage in a clandestine struggle to liberate the land of Palestine, to liberate Haifa and Jaffa.”
- Gamal Abdel Nasser
(Meeting with King Hussein, 1970; quoted in Efraim Karsh, Islamic Imperialism: A History [Yale University Press, 2007], p172)

“We shall never stop until we can go back home and Israel is destroyed… The goal of our struggle is the end of Israel, and there can be no compromises or mediations… the goal of this violence is the elimination of Zionism from Palestine in all its political, economic and military aspects… We don’t want peace, we want victory. Peace for us means Israel’s destruction and nothing else. ”
- Yasser Arafat, PLO chairman
(Washington Post, March 29, 1970)

“There are only two specific Arab goals at present: elimination of the consequences of the 1967 aggression through Israel’s withdrawal from all the lands it occupied that year, and elimination of the consequences of the 1948 aggression through the eradication of Israel. The second goal is not, in fact, specific but abstract, and some of us make the mistake of starting with the second step instead of the first… we should learn from the enemy how to move step by step.”
- Mohammed Heikal, Sadat’s adviser and spokesman
(Al-Ahram, February 25, 1971; quoted in Theodore Draper, “The Road to Geneva,” Commentary, February 1974)

“If the political efforts succeed and some sort of a political solution is found which will eliminate the traces of aggression, this would by no means bring an end to our struggle against Zionism and imperialism, and will by no means bring a happy conclusion to our fateful battle against the United States and Israel, because no political settlement whatsoever could eliminate the basic contradiction which exists – and will continue to exist – between the Arab nation on the one hand and American imperialism and Zionism on the other… As long as the racist colonialist entity continues to burden the usurped land of Palestine, there will be a ‘focus’ for threat, expansion and aggression, a ‘center’ for counter-revolution, and a ‘broadcasting station’ for psychological warfare. Thus a political solution cannot by any means bring an end to the battle against the enemy.”
- Ahmed Nabil al-Hilali, Arab Socialist Union, Egypt
(Al-Katib, March 1971; quoted in Yehoshafat Harkabi, Palestinians and Israel [Keter Books, 1974], pp146-7)

“Once again, total Israeli withdrawal, if it were to take place, would be tantamount to showing that military strength is irrelevant to the outcome of the conflict… If you could succeed in bringing it about, you would have passed sentence on the entire state of Israel.”
- Mohammed Heikal, Sadat’s adviser and spokesman
(Interview, Journal of Palestine Studies, Autumn 1971, p7)

“The books published about Hitler depict him as a scoundrel who turned on other nations… his favourite dish seems to have been the Jews. He burned and drowned them because they are traitors to every land… People all over the world have come to realise that Hitler was right, since Jews respect neither law, religion, nor moral values. They are bloodsuckers and interested in destroying the whole world so that Israel shall remain. They are interested in destroying the whole world which has thrust them out of its midst, expelled them and despised them for centuries… and burned them in Hitler’s crematoria… one million… two million… six million.”
- Anis Mansour, Sadat’s associate and government commentator
(Al-Akhbar, Egypt, August 19, 1973; quoted in New York Times, October 21, 1973)

“The demand for an Israeli withdrawal from all the occupied Arab territory is a partial demand which the Arab states call for as part of a general liberation plan whose purpose is to bring an end to the racist colonial presence in Palestine…”
- Egyptian government editorial
(Al-Gomhouria, Egypt, September 25, 1973; quoted in New York Times, October 21, 1973)

“Our forces continue to pursue the enemy and strike at him and will continue to strike at enemy forces until we regain our positions in our occupied land and continue then until we liberate the whole land.”
- Hafez Assad, President of Syria
(Radio Damascus, October 15, 1973; reprinted in Walter Laqueur, ed., The Israel-Arab Reader [Bantam Books, rev. ed., 1976], p459)

“The issue is not just the liberation of the Arab territories occupied since June 5, 1967, but strikes against the future of Israel more powerfully and in a more profound manner, although this is not obvious right now. This means that if the Arabs are able to liberate their territories occupied since June 5, 1967 by force, what can prevent them in the next stage from liberating Palestine itself by force?”
- Mohammed Heikal, Sadat’s adviser and spokesman
(Al-Ahram, October 19, 1973; quoted in Theodore Draper, “The Road to Geneva,” Commentary, February 1974; Gil Carl AlRoy, “Do the Arabs Want Peace?” Commentary, February 1974)

“All our moves are based on four general principles: continued use of the rifle, no waiving of historical rights, no peace, and no negotiations… Whatever form of government is established in the territory when the shadow of occupation passes away, whenever I address my fighters and revolutionaries, I shall say: ‘Let our rifles be aimed at the beloved land, the land of the homeland, the land of Palestine.’”
- Yasser Arafat
(Al-Safir, Beirut, March 26, 1974; Journal of Palestine Studies, Summer 1974, pp212-3)

“The [Palestine] Liberation Organization will employ all means, and first and foremost armed struggle, to liberate Palestinian territory and to establish the independent combatant national authority for the people over every part of Palestinian territory that is liberated” (Article 2); “Once it is established, the Palestinian national authority will strive to achieve a union of the confrontation countries, with the aim of completing the liberation of all Palestinian territory…” (Article 8).
- PLO Phased Plan
(Wafa, Beirut, June 9, 1974; Journal of Palestine Studies, Summer 1974, p224)

“The effort of our generation is to return to the 1967 borders. Afterward the next generation will carry the responsibility.”
- Anwar Sadat, President of Egypt
(Al-Anwar, June 22, 1975; quoted in Y. Harkabi, Arab Strategies and Israel’s Response [Free Press, 1977], p55)

Q: “Are you saying that if Israel withdraws to its pre-’67 borders and recognizes the national rights of the Palestinians to a separate state of your own, the Palestine Liberation Organization would be prepared to accept the reality of Israel’s existence?”
A: “No, I am saying that the Israelis have two choices: to let all the Palestinians return to their land and have this democratic state we propose, or to live in this so-called state of Israel without letting the Palestinians return. If they choose the latter, they will surely die and we will surely win… this Zionist ghetto of Israel must be destroyed… We will unite the whole region in one state, not just Palestine.”
- Farouk Kaddoumi, Director of the PLO Political Department
(Newsweek, January 5, 1976)

“Let us all die, let us all be killed, let us all be assassinated, but we will not recognize Israel.”
- Salah Khalaf (Abu Iyad), PLO deputy leader
(New York Times, February 17, 1976)

“Israel is an alien body in the Arab sea. This body is bound to disappear given the effective medicine – a united Arab front.”
- Abu Hassan, PLO representative
(Foreign Broadcast Information Service, September 26, 1977; quoted in The New Republic, October 18, 1980)

“I want to tell Carter and Begin that when the Arabs set off their volcano there will be only Arabs in this part of the world… Our people will continue to fuel the torch of the revolution with rivers of blood until the whole of the occupied homeland is liberated, the whole of the homeland is liberated, not just a part of it.”
- Yasser Arafat
(Associated Press, March 12, 1979)

“Peace for us means the destruction of Israel. We are preparing for an all-out war, a war which will last for generations… We shall not rest until the day when we return to our home, and until we destroy Israel.”
- Yasser Arafat
(El Mundo, Venezuela, February 11, 1980; The Times, UK, August 5, 1980)

“Fatah is a nationalist revolutionary movement bent on the complete liberation of Palestine [and] the liquidation of the Zionist entity economically, militarily, politically, culturally and intellectually…”
- Fatah Congress resolution
(Associated Press, June 5, 1980)

“Without any doubt the PLO is entirely in agreement with the [Fatah] resolution… We wish at any price to liquidate the State of Israel.”
- Ibrahim Souss, PLO representative
(Europe No. 1 Radio, France, June 16, 1980; The Times, UK, August 5, 1980)

“We shall never allow Israel to live in peace… We shall never recognize Israel, never accept the usurper, the colonialist, the imperialist.”
- Farouk Kaddoumi
(Der Stern, West Germany, July 30, 1981)

“The establishment of a Palestinian state over part of the Palestinian soil does not amount to a renunciation of the strategic aim. It is a pity that Israel realizes that… and knows that the establishment of such a state constitutes the reassertion of Palestinian identity and the beginning of the end for Israel.”
- Shafiq al-Hut, Director of the PLO’s Beirut office
(Al-Anba, Kuwait, March 20, 1983; quoted in Barry Rubin, Revolution Until Victory? The Politics and History of the PLO [Harvard University Press, 1994], p70)

“The Palestinian people will achieve an independent Palestinian state which will be the start of the liberation of the entire homeland. This is the beginning of the liberation and not its end or a halt along the borders of that state. The Palestinian state which shall arise shall be the beginning of the end of Israel.”
- Salah Khalaf (Abu Iyad)
(Al-Qabas, Kuwait, November 10, 1984; quoted in Harris O. Schoenberg, A Mandate For Terror: The United Nations and the PLO [Shapolsky Books, 1989], pp398-9)

“The Prophet of Allah… says: ‘The Last Hour would not come until the Muslims fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them, and until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim or Servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him…’” (Article 7); “They are behind the French Revolution, the Communist Revolution and most of the revolutions here and there which we have heard of and are hearing of. With wealth they formed secret organizations throughout the world to destroy societies and promote the Zionist cause; these organizations included the Freemasons, the Rotary and Lions clubs, and others... They are behind the First World War… They are behind the Second World War…” (Article 22); “the Zionist plan has no bounds, and after Palestine they wish to expand from the Nile River to the Euphrates… such is their plan in the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion” (Article 32).
- Hamas Covenant
(Gaza, August 18, 1988; reprinted in Journal of Palestine Studies, Summer 1993, pp122-34)

“Palestine, whose shape resembles a dagger, doesn’t know the meaning of partition. Our independence does not mean the partition of the dagger, but rather, its penetration into the soil of the homeland… Those who expect the collapse of the Zionist structure through one decisive hit… don’t realize how the masses create their own power through a sequence of interrelated historical phases.”
- Ahmed Abd a-Rahman, Fatah chief spokesman
(Falastin al-Thawra, November 27, 1988; Jerusalem Post, December 21, 1988)

“The borders of our state… represent only a part of our national aspirations. We will strive to expand them so as to realize our ambition for the entire territory of Palestine.”
- Salah Khalaf (Abu Iyad)
(Al-Anba, Kuwait, December 5, 1988; quoted in Efraim Karsh, Arafat’s War: The Man and his Battle for Israeli Conquest [Grove Press, 2003], p51)

“The establishment of a Palestinian state on any part of Palestine is but a step toward the whole of Palestine.”
- Salah Khalaf (Abu Iyad)
(Al-Anba, Kuwait, December 13, 1988; quoted in Efraim Karsh, Arafat’s War: The Man and his Battle for Israeli Conquest [Grove Press, 2003], p51)

“It is [an] incontrovertible fact that Palestine is Arab-Islamic and that the Jews are the scum of humanity that gathered from the four corners of the earth and conquered our land… Treachery flows in their blood, as the Quran testifies.”
- Salah Khalaf (Abu Iyad)
(Al-Qabas, November 28, 1989; quoted in Barry Rubin, Revolution Until Victory? The Politics and History of the PLO [Harvard University Press, 1994], p180)

“... the so-called ‘State of Israel’ was one of the consequences of World War II and should disappear, like the Berlin Wall has along with the other consequences of that war.”
- Yasser Arafat, joint statement with Colonel Gaddafi
(BBC Summary of World Broadcasts, January 8, 1990)

“You Germans have great expertise in the killing of Jews with gas. This interests us in the same way… How [can] this knowledge… be used to destroy Israel?”
- General Amer al-Saadi, Iraqi chemical weapons commander
(Kenneth Timmerman, The Death Lobby [Bantam Books, 1992], p81)

“It is an open war until the elimination of Israel and until the death of the last Jew on earth.”
- Hezbollah statement, issued under Islamic Jihad alias
(United Press International, March 24, 1992)

“We have to accept the [Oslo] deal and wait for a change in the circumstances that could lead to the elimination of Israel.”
- Abu el-Aynayn, PLO commander in Rashidieh, Lebanon
(US News and World Report, September 27, 1993)

“We will not lay down our weapons until complete liberation... Sooner or later we will throw the Zionists into the sea.”
- Lt. Col. Munir Maqdah, PLO commander in Lebanon
(Reuters, October 8, 1993)

“Palestine cannot contain the two of us. It is either us or the Zionists.”
- Abu Imad, PLO military commander in Bourj al-Barajneh, Lebanon
(Jerusalem Report, November 18, 1993)

“The Palestinian people know there is a state that was established through coercion and it must be destroyed.”
- Farouk Kaddoumi
(Reuters, Yediot Aharonot, August 10, 1994)

“The PLO will now concentrate on splitting Israel psychologically into two camps... We plan to eliminate the State of Israel and establish a Palestinian state. We will make life unbearable for Jews by psychological warfare and population explosion. Jews will not want to live among Arabs. I have no use for Jews. They are and remain Jews. We now need all the help we can get from you in our battle for a united Palestine under Arab rule.”
- Yasser Arafat, speech to Arab diplomats in Stockholm
(Jerusalem Post, February 23, 1996)

“We are sure of our victory against the Americans and the Jews as promised by the Prophet: Judgment day shall not come until the Muslim fights the Jew, where the Jew will hide behind trees and stones, and the tree and the stone will speak and say, ‘Muslim, behind me is a Jew. Come and kill him.’”
- Osama bin Laden, al-Qaeda leader
(Esquire, February 1999)

“... the criminals, the terrorists - are the Jews… They are the ones who must be butchered and killed, as Allah the Almighty said: ‘Fight them: Allah will torture them at your hands, and will humiliate them and will help you to overcome them’ … Have no mercy on the Jews, no matter where they are, in any country. Fight them, wherever you are. Wherever you meet them, kill them.”
- Dr Ahmad Abu Halabiya, Palestinian Authority cleric
(Palestinian Authority Television, October 13, 2000)

“Thanks to Hitler, of blessed memory, who… revenged in advance, against the most vile criminals on the face of the earth. Although we do have a complaint against him, for his revenge on them was not enough.”
- Egyptian government newspaper
(Al-Akhbar, Egypt, April 18, 2001; repeated on April 25, 2001)

“[This is] an exceptional historic opportunity to finish off the entire cancerous Zionist project.”
- Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah, Hezbollah leader
(Financial Times, Europe Edition, April 25, 2001)

“No one can ask why Hitler punished the Jews… Did Hitler attack the Jews or did their crime deserve even more?”
- Egyptian government newspaper
(Al-Akhbar, Egypt, May 27, 2001)

“Palestine is Arab and must be liberated from the river to the sea and all the Zionists who emigrated to the land of Palestine must leave.”
- Saddam Hussein, Iraqi dictator
(Iraqi Television, May 30, 2001; quoted in Robert Wistrich, Muslim Anti-Semitism: A Clear and Present Danger [American Jewish Committee, 2002], p43)

“We are ambushing the Israelis and cheating them… If we agree to declare our state over what is now 22 percent of Palestine, meaning the West Bank and Gaza, our ultimate goal is the liberation of all historic Palestine from the River to the Sea… We distinguish the strategic, long-term goals from the political phased goals, which we are compelled to temporarily accept due to international pressure.”
- Faisal Husseini, PLO strategist
(Al-Arabi, Egypt, June 24, 2001; Jerusalem Report, July 30, 2001)

“The nature of the Zionist regime is aggressive and the arrival of Ariel Sharon in power has complicated the situation, but the intifada is the countdown for the destruction of Israel.”
- Abdel Halim Khaddam, Vice-President of Syria
(Agence France Presse, July 25, 2001)

“All spears should be directed at the Jews, at the enemies of Allah, the nation that was cursed in Allah’s book. Allah has described them as apes and pigs... We blow them up in Hadera, we blow them up in Tel Aviv and in Netanya… until the Jew will hide behind a stone or a tree, and the stone or the tree will say: Oh Muslim, Oh servant of Allah, a Jew is hiding behind me, come kill him.”
- Sheikh Ibrahim Madhi, Palestinian Authority cleric
(Palestinian Authority Television, August 3, 2001)

“... we believe that one of these days, we will enter Jerusalem as conquerors, enter Jaffa as conquerors, enter Haifa as conquerors, enter Ramle and Lod as conquerors… we are convinced that our dead go to Paradise, while the dead of the Jews go to Hell… Oh Allah, show the Jews a black day… Oh Allah, annihilate the Jews and their supporters… Oh Allah, raise the flag of Jihad across the land…”
- Sheikh Ibrahim Madhi, Palestinian Authority cleric
(Palestinian Authority Television, April 12, 2002)

“If they [Jews] all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide.”
- Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah, Hezbollah leader
(Daily Star, Lebanon, October 23, 2002)

“[The Jews] are accursed in heaven and on earth. They are accursed from the day the human race was created and from the day their mothers bore them… These accursed ones are a catastrophe for the human race. They are the virus of the generation, doomed to a life of humiliation and wretchedness… they are the plague of the generation and the bacterium of all time… Thus, the Jews are accursed - the Jews of our time, those who preceded them and those who will come after them, if any Jews come after them. With regard to the fraud of the Holocaust… I, personally and in light of this imaginary tale, complain to Hitler, even saying to him from the bottom of my heart, ‘If only you had done it, brother, if only it had really happened, so that the world could sigh in relief…’”
- Egyptian government newspaper
(Al-Akhbar, Egypt, April 29, 2002)

“As for the bomb being chemical and poisonous, that was an invention by the evil Jordanian intelligence... God knows that should we - and we ask God to shortly empower us to - possess that kind of bomb, we would not hesitate one second to use it on Israeli cities.”
- Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, Jordanian terrorist leader
(Washington Post, September 27, 2004)

“... the Jews are a virus resembling AIDS, from which the entire world suffers… the Jews were behind all the civil strife in this world. The Jews are behind the suffering of the nations… The day will come when we will rule Britain and the entire world – except for the Jews. The Jews will not enjoy a life of tranquility under our rule, because they are treacherous by nature, as they have been throughout history… The stones and trees will want the Muslims to finish off every Jew.”
- Sheikh Ibrahim Mudeiris, Palestinian Authority cleric
(Palestinian Authority Television, May 13, 2005)

“Allah’s promise and the Prophet’s prophecy of our victory in Palestine over the Jews and over the oppressive Zionists has begun to come true... Before Israel dies, it must be humiliated and degraded. Allah willing, before they die, they will experience humiliation and degradation every day... Allah willing, we will make them lose their eyesight, we will make them lose their brains.”
- Khaled Mashal, Hamas leader
(Al-Jazeera TV, February 3, 2006)

“My message to the loathed Jews is that there is no god but Allah, we will chase you everywhere! We are a nation that drinks blood, and we know that there is no blood better than the blood of Jews. We will not leave you alone until we have quenched our thirst with your blood, and our children’s thirst with your blood.”
- Hamas broadcast
(Jerusalem Post, February 17, 2006)

“Israel should be wiped from the face of the earth. It is an animal state that recognises no human worth. It is a cancer that should be eradicated.”
- Ghazi Hamad, Hamas spokesman
(BBC, November 8, 2006)

“Israel is weaker than a spider web. The future of Israel is death and perdition... Our martyrs inscribed in blood during the July-August war: Death to Israel.”
- Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah
(Al-Manar TV, January 30, 2007)

“Rest assured that the day the American forces leave Iraq, the Israelis will leave the region along with them... This is because the annihilation of the Zionist regime has begun... The moment they leave Iraq, you, the Muslims of the world, can walk into Palestine, because Israel will no longer exist.”
- Abdallah Safialdeen, Hezbollah representative in Iran
(Channel 4, Iranian TV, March 4, 2007)

“Oh Allah, vanquish the Jews and their supporters. Oh Allah, vanquish the Americans and their supporters. Oh Allah, count their numbers, and kill them all, down to the very last one.”
- Ahmad Bahr, Palestinian Legislative Council acting speaker
(Sudan TV, April 13, 2007)

“The Prophet of Allah has promised us that the Jews will gather in Palestine, and that the Muslims will fight them, and totally kill them.”
- Muhammad Nimr al-Zaghmout, head of the Palestinian Islamic Council in Lebanon
(Al-Kawthar TV, May 15, 2007)

“By Allah, we will not be satisfied even if all the Jews are killed.”
- Dr. Walid Al-Rashudi, Department of Islamic Studies, King Saud University, Saudi Arabia
(Al-Aqsa TV, February 29, 2008)

“The treacherous Zionist enemy will never permit us to lessen our revenge towards him or stray from our confrontation against him, until he is wiped off this land, which is saturated with the blood of the martyrs.”
- Ahmad Dahbour, Palestinian Authority propagandist
(Jerusalem Post, March 23, 2008)

“Strike the interests of Jews and Americans, and all those who wield aggression against the Muslims. Today no one can say that we are battling the Jews in Palestine alone.”
- Ayman al-Zawahiri, al-Qaeda leader
(Associated Press, March 24, 2008)

“The PLO... has not changed its platform even one iota... the Israeli ideology will collapse in its entirety, and we will begin to progress with our own ideology, Allah willing, and drive them out of all of Palestine.”
- Abbas Zaki, Palestinian Authority representative in Lebanon
(NBN TV, April 9, 2008)

“I am optimistic that within ten years, Israel will come to its end.”
- Riyad Nasan al-Agha, Syrian Minister of Culture
(Al-Hiwar TV, April 19, 2008)

“Now more than ever I tell you – we will never recognize Israel... We will form the Palestinian state on all of Palestine’s territories and the sun of liberty will burn the Zionists.”
- Mahmoud al-Zahar, Hamas leader in Gaza
(UPI, May 14, 2008)




Convergence? The Homogenization of Islamist Doctrines in Gaza




On August 14, 2009, a bloody confrontation took place in Rafah, a city at the southern tip of the Gaza Strip, between Hamas security forces and supporters of Abd al-Latif Musa (aka Abu al-Nur al-Maqdisi), Imam of the Ibn Taymiyya mosque and leader of Gaza’s salafiya movement. This violent clash seemed to usher in a new, more violent phase in the long-standing intra-Islamist quarrel between Hamas and the al-Qaeda-inspired constellation of salafist-inclined jihadist groups operating in the region. To many observers, the clash was yet more evidence that Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood’s most politically successful offshoot, was ideologically irreconcilable with the tenets of salafist-jihadism, and that the Hamas government could be trusted to serve as a firewall against al-Qaeda’s penetration in Gaza. Indeed, in the aftermath of the August violence, the outpouring of salafist-jihadist denunciations, tracts and analyses labeling Hamas as a traitor to the cause of Islam, and even as an apostate organization, only underscored the breadth of the antagonism between these two Islamist rivals.[1]

Yet beneath the surface of this ongoing conflict lie a number of developments within Gaza that have considerably narrowed, rather than widened, the gap ideological between the contending and purportedly irreconcilable ideological currents represented by Hamas and its salafi-jihadist detractors. This process, which is best described as one of ideological convergence and homogenization, is ongoing and, to be sure, its outcomes are not necessarily linear. But the process itself is not limited to the rivalry between Hamas and salafi-jihadists in Gaza; in fact, it affects both field and cyberspace Islamist movements, effectively testing the limits of ideological Islamist expression across the world. Understanding this process of convergence is thus crucial for any assessment of Islamism’s plausible futures as a whole.

The Arab origins of modern Islamism, as an ideology and as a set of disparate organizational structures, date back to the first half of the 20th Century. The 1924 abolition of the Ottoman Caliphate by the authorities of the newly-formed Turkish Republic created an impetus for a reactionary call for the restoration of the lost institution, whether as a symbolic act of anti-Western struggle or as the kernel of a broader Islamic renewal. This call was, however, distinctly less potent at the time than the ascendant ideas and ideals of modernist progress--national unity, state formation, and anti-colonialism. Indeed, the dominant cultural outlook in most Arab societies and communities had already appropriated for itself many of the elements to which the then-nascent and minority Islamist discourse sought to lay claim.

This was amply demonstrated, among other things, by the semantic evolution of terms that modern Arab Muslim political thought derived from the Islamic scholastic tradition. In hindsight, because of their organic affinities, one might have expected that the traditions of Islam would serve and even advantage the burgeoning Islamist discourse over its non-Islamist competitors. But instead, this tradition and its terminology was appropriated and invested with new meaning by Islamism’s more secular and nationalist Muslim competitors with relative ease.

For instance, the word umma—the ancestral Arabic term for the “one Muslim community”—was effectively stripped of its original religious substance and identification with the global Muslim community, and was instead promoted as the Arabic answer to the European concept of nation. In its most unqualified usage, umma came to refer to the whole of the “Arab Nation”—that is, to an imagined political community that was decidedly not primarily Islamic in its identity, as it included both non-Muslims and Muslims, and excluded non-Arab Muslims. Likewise, the concept of jihad—which originally referred to the communal and individual obligation to the Divine to institute Islam as a comprehensive order through multiple means, with the martial aspect being invariably dominant—was thoroughly de-Islamicized, and reapplied by Arab nationalists and leftists to struggles that they deemed praiseworthy and necessary to the advancement of Arab society and nationhood.[2]

Indeed, for much of the 20th Century and throughout many key parts of the Arab world (with the notable exception of Saudi Arabia), Arab nationalism, rather than Islam, was the dominant and most dynamic framework for political discourse and activity. Islam as a religion was implicitly or explicitly understood as one aspect of a historically-lived and created Arab civilization and culture. This permitted, among other things, a critical perspective on Islam, as Arab civilization could thus be credited or blamed for Islam’s legacy as an actual lived tradition. It also effectively provided a powerful intellectual check on Islamist ideology.

But as Arab nationalism degenerated into an incubator of dictatorships, and as Arab nationalist ideology was further discredited for failing to deliver on the renaissance that it promised, the subsuming of Islam came to a gradual end. Subsequently, a role reversal in cultural constructions began to take effect in which Arab society and culture was recast as a more-or-less conforming offshoot of Islam, which was increasingly being seen as the dominant framework for cultural as well as political life. This was most readily visible in the so-called “Islamic turn” that swept the Arab world in the 1970s, which infused religious sensibilities and ideals into Muslim political life, and which ultimately helped catalyze the Islamic revolution in Iran in 1979, and the mobilization for the anti-Soviet jihad in Afghanistan in the 1980s. Competing Islamist ideological propositions and groups thus emerged, more the result of the failure of its competitors, as well as field circumstances, than a result of the coalescence of a coherent Islamist ideological discourse.

Nonetheless, Islamism supplied a rough but ready ideology to fill the vacuum left by the receding grand narratives of the 20th Century. The slogan “Islam is the solution,” championed and popularized in Arab societies most especially by the Muslim Brotherhood, provided a romantic alternative for the disillusioned base of the increasingly decrepit nationalist and leftist ideological movements that had yielded little more than repression and oppression to their own constituencies. Clearly inspired by its declining secular competitors, Islamism presented its ideals of an ‘Islamic state’ as a more vigorous totalitarian alternative to Arab nationalism, and offered as well what it claimed as a comprehensive agenda of Islamic reform and revival in which individual, family, society, and state were all to undergo a process of “Islamization.”

In the past few decades, Islamism has come to dominate the political discourse of many key Muslim societies. By and large, this has been the legacy of the assiduous efforts of the Muslim Brotherhood and similar revivalist movements such as South Asia’s Jamaat-e-Islami. As pioneers of modern Islamism, these movements have sought to replace traditional Muslim pietism with Islamic activism, and through their combined efforts, they have effected a general re-orientation of considerable elements of Muslim cultural and political life into an expressly Islamic framework. To the extent that there has been ideological competition within these societies, it has largely been between contending strands of Islamism, rather than between Islamism and its non-Islamist alternatives. In fact, thus far, Muslim thought has generally failed to offer a substantive and politically potent alternative to Islamist totalitarianism.

Through much of the 20th Century, Islamist totalitarianism remained more of an aspiration than a system. The details of the “Islamic solution” proposed by the early generation of revivalists remained largely unstated and unsettled, and Islamist movements were invariably incoherent about what they wished for and how they sought to achieve it. The closing decades of the past century witnessed the general emergence of competing Islamist ideological propositions and strategic approaches. The pioneering efforts of revivalist movements like the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood and the Jamaat-e-Islami have certainly provided a productive base for adoption and adaptation in the emergent Islamist universe. Yet as a comprehensive system, the Muslim Brotherhood/Jamaat-e-Islami model has failed to impose itself as the essential expression of Islamism.

From Saudi Arabia, another model of Islamic revival emerged with considerable potency. The arrangement between the tribal leadership of Al Saud and the Salafi religious preacher Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab in the 18th century was revived in the 20th as a symbiosis between the Saudi monarchy and the Wahhabi clerical establishment. This revival intrinsically gave increasing power to the clerical establishment, both by enlarging its authority over Saudi society, and by endowing it with a considerable fraction of the oil revenue dividends that allowed it to further expand its role, locally and later globally. The original character of the Saudi-Wahhabi symbiosis, while empowering the clerical establishment to deepen its totalitarian grip on society, was still premised on the perpetuation of the absolute loyalty that the historical salafi school dictated as an obligation on subjects towards Muslim rulers (except in extreme cases of flagrant apostasy of the latter.) But in the 1960s, as the Brotherhood ideology began to insinuate itself into Saudi society, it incubated new salafist intellectual trends in which the regimented loyalism, quietism, and religious pietism imposed by the Wahhabi establishment was infused with a new political activism that saw it as a religious obligation to question, reform, and even violently oppose the authority of de facto rulers.

Nowadays, Islamism’s diverse manifestations have generally declared their adherence to one of two procedural-tactical formulations or approaches. These include first (1) an absolutist revolutionary approach, which insists on the immediate and total renunciation of any non-Islamist political order, and the implementation of its theoretical alternative—the “Islamic state”—when at all possible. The second (2) approach is best described as “gradualist” or “evolutionary.” This approach, favored by the Brotherhood and its constellation of offshoots, effectively limits or defers the rejection of non-Islamist political orders, and proceeds instead along a path focused on incrementally preparing Muslim populations for the full implementation of the ideal of an Islamic state. Of course, these two formulations do not exhaust the procedural alternatives espoused by Islamist formations (one particular variant that accords both with the principled rejection of the first approach as well as the gradualist orientation of the second approach is espoused in theory by Hizb al-Tahrir), nor do these tactical approaches comprehensively determine the strategic vision of their proponents.

The strategic visions of various Islamist movements have also fallen into two main paradigms: (1) a globalized aspiration for a universal Islamic victory over all that is “un-Islamic,” and (2) a localized focus on a comparatively more delineated confrontation. When elaborated to a comprehensive theoretical framework, Islamist ideologies, despite their diverse strategic agendas, have fundamentally agreed that the global and universal paradigm, rather than the localized agenda, is indeed the ultimate strategic goal. However, considerable variations, as well as conflicts, within Islamism exist over the time frame for its eventual implementation. The postponement of such a goal is manifested either in the form of its declared relegation to a long-term or indefinite future, or through Islamism’s conspicuous silence on the matter. Yet whether explicit or implicit, no prominent Islamist movement has ever renounced the ideal of Islam’s global and universal victory over the un-Islamic.

Indeed, in this respect the modern Islamist position is clearly derived from the classical scholastic tradition—which stipulates an ultimate triumph for Islam—and from the fundamental understanding of Islam as a “mercy to all humankind,” which dictates that believers should carry the message of their faith globally. It is noteworthy that modern non-Islamist Muslim thought has provided few substantive alternatives to the intrinsically martial character and message of the Islamist universal paradigm. The absence of such alternatives has clearly enhanced Islamism’s predatory and opportunistic behavior.

Historically, these two binary sets of tactical approaches and strategic paradigms have yielded four combinations that have been variably espoused by Islamist groups: (1-1) an absolutist revolutionary approach with a globalist outlook, which is best exemplified today by al-Qaeda; (1-2) an absolutist revolutionary approach with a localized focus, which appears to be the current posture of the Taliban in Afghanistan and the de facto reality of Somalia’s Shabab; (2-1) a gradualist evolutionary approach with a globalist outlook, which is the not-so-muted aspiration of the Muslim Brotherhood as an international organization; and (2-2) a gradualist evolutionary approach with a localized focus, as is the declared position of Hamas in Palestine and Hezbollah in Lebanon.

The most acute contrast, in tactics and strategy, is thus between what al-Qaeda and Hamas respectively represent: 1-1 and 2-2. Nowadays, al-Qaeda may be the most visible symbol of global salafist-jihadism, while Hamas, as arguably the most politically successful Brotherhood offshoot and the custodian of active Palestinian Islamism, imposes itself as an actor to be accounted for by all Islamists worldwide. Still, an apparent structural antagonism opposes the two. The contrast is dramatically sharpened when Hamas’s roots in religious ideology are de-emphasized and those of al-Qaeda are highlighted. If, according to this view, Hamas is to be understood as an expression of Arab resistance to occupation, and the last incarnation of the struggle of Palestinian society to oppose—even if self-destructively—acts of oppression and dispossession, Hamas’s stated Islamist ideology has to be largely ignored; it is an artifact of the need to mobilize and solicit support, in light of the failures of other political propositions, whether internationalist, nationalist, or patriotic. Hamas’s declared gradualist approach toward Islamizing Palestinian society might thus be dismissed as rhetorical, instrumental, or utopian—and hence, as unrealizable. Hamas’s localized focus, on the other hand, can be trusted as consistent with Palestinian history and national aspirations, and therefore as reflective of the true character of the organization.

By contrast, al-Qaeda’s militants could correctly be seen as ideologically detached from the suffering of the Palestinians; its sporadic use of the question of Palestine and the festering conflict there could thus be termed both insincere and utilitarian, aimed at gaining recruits through a most effective bait-and-switch method—catch by using Palestine as bait, keep and use later for the Islamic struggle for the caliphate.

Those who interpret away Hamas’s ideological posture often do so in the hopes that Hamas might serve as a potential interlocutor in the resumption of the elusive Middle East peace process. These analysts may expect Hamas, as an organization, to be susceptible to a positive evolution in the direction of moderation. Thus Hamas would presumably constitute a firewall or a bulwark against al-Qaeda’s efforts to establish itself in the Palestinian scene.

Naturally, the existence of pragmatists (and opportunists) in Hamas’s ranks is well within the realm of possibilities. The pronouncements of Hamas leaders—notably Khalid Mishal[3] from his Damascus exile, but also Ismail Haniyyah in Gaza[4]—often leave ample room for analysis that supports the expectations of those who would like to see Hamas play a constructive role in the peace process. More significantly, the actions of Hamas in repeatedly cracking down on the salafist-jihadists within the Gaza Strip seem, at face value, to confirm the Palestinian movement’s anti-al-Qaeda credentials. However, focusing solely on the (still unrealized) promises of Hamas’s pragmatists, and on Hamas’s violent response toward the incoherent salafist-jihadist challenges to its own rule, effectively serves to conceal the long-term effect that Hamas has had on Gazan society in general, and on their own militants and ideology in particular.

Hamas’s leadership has been trying to hold two positions at the same time. On the one hand, they have issued statements declaring that it is not their intention to establish an Islamic state or emirate in Gaza. They’ve additionally indicated their willingness to enter into a lasting and potentially renewable truce of seven or even fifty years with Israel, based on a complete withdrawal to the 1967 borders. On the other hand, they have permitted—and in some instances, even encouraged—a broad-based discourse among Hamas’s rank and file, in its broadcast media, and on the Internet, championing the effective Islamization of Gazan society. They stress further that any perceived delays in implementing measures consistent with the Islamist understanding of Islamic jurisprudence are only temporary, and that the putative truce that Hamas offers Israel is by necessity only provisional, even if its period is extended, until the means of eradicating the Jewish state are secured.

Three different analyses have competed in attempting to reconcile the apparent contradictions in Hamas’s dual posture. The first is that Hamas’s inclination towards compromise with Israel is potentially real, and that the leadership’s permissiveness toward the more bellicose undercurrent is a means of mollifying frustrations at the movement’s more intransigent base. The second view understands Hamas’s language of compromise essentially to be a cover to improve its operational mobilization and readiness, and to confuse and divide its enemy. The third view is indifferent to the intentions of both Hamas’s leadership and its base, and assumes that once Hamas is effectively engaged in a settlement process, however insincerely, the dynamics of that process will facilitate further engagement, hopefully productively.

Irrespective of which analysis ultimately proves correct, the current dual posture Hamas has settled on is incrementally shifting Gazan society and culture toward the embrace of more radical formulations of Islamism. Even in the most optimistic analysis, which hopes that the Hamas leadership is using ideological radicalism merely as a means of appeasing and securing its base, the increasing radicalization of Hamas’s militants and base will likely work to dramatically curtail the leadership’s ability to maneuver in the future. Meanwhile, this doctrinal position and the realities of Hamas’s Islamizing policies are preparing the social, cultural, and political ground within Gaza for the future embrace of explicitly more radical ideologies and political agendas. This dynamic, needless to say, becomes all the more powerful in the event that Hamas’s leadership becomes weakened, and by extension, its gradualist approach toward Islamization discredited.

This scenario—Gazan society’s full-throated embrace of intransigent and totalitarian Islamism—represents the declared hopes of many salafist ideologues, and they have been actively pursuing this goal in their dealings with Hamas, and Gaza as a whole, in recent years. Indeed, the salafi-jihadists have sought to capitalize on the tension between Hamas’s increasingly radicalized base, and its pragmatic-leaning leadership, in hopes of reaching one of two outcomes: either force the leadership to adopt an ideological and political agenda consistent with al-Qaeda’s, or drive Hamas to implosion in the hopes of creating opportunities for the emergence of even more radical alternatives within Gaza and elsewhere.

In recent years, this salafi-jihadist strategy has been instrumental in shaping the dynamics of the confrontation between Hamas and al-Qaeda.[5] The intensity of the verbal conflict between these two rivals has ebbed and flowed as a function of events on the ground. Nonetheless, salafi-jihadism has been most responsible for setting the agenda and terms of this rivalry. Both the symbolic leadership and the ideologues of al-Qaeda have engaged in advising, chastising, and condemning Hamas for various actions and positions it has taken. At times they have also praised the militants within Hamas’s ranks, and in other instances have even extended their praise to include the organization as a whole. Far fewer communications in this exchange have originated from Hamas. Occasionally, Hamas’s leadership has replied dismissively to al-Qaeda’s condemnations and invitations. But Hamas’s responses have been largely defensive, and far from coordinated. In one instance, it was left to a junior field commander to disparagingly answer Abu Umar al-Baghdadi, the alleged leader of the al-Qaeda affiliated Islamic State of Iraq, when Baghdadi called on Hamas militants to mutiny against their leadership.

Meanwhile, all of the salafist-jihadist movement’s communications to Hamas, whether in praise or challenge, have sought to push Hamas—and Gazan society as a whole along with it—toward the embrace of more radical social and political positions. In particular, salafist-jihadist ideologues, periodically joined by al-Qaeda’s leaders, have assaulted Hamas for its dereliction in adhering to four of their defining principles in, respectively, the political, social, international relations, and military realms.

(1) Politically, Hamas has refrained from declaring an Islamic state or emirate. Furthermore, Hamas has contested (and won) parliamentary elections. Hamas is thus in blatant violation of the salafist notion of al-hakimiyyah—the recognition of the sole jurisdiction of divine revelation in legislation and political authority.[6] Salafist-jihadist ideologues are willing to recognize that circumstances can delay the declaration of an Islamic entity. In Iraq, where such an entity was declared, some salafist-jihadists refused to pledge allegiance to it on the grounds that the declaration was premature. They were not chastised. However, Hamas’s critics profess outrage at Hamas’s willing embrace of the political order of the Palestinian Authority. In their view, the alternative to an Islamic state should be no state at all, not the acceptance of an order that transgresses Islamist principles.

Hamas’s answer to this challenge refrains from any defense of the Palestinian Authority as a political system. One Hamas-affiliated major religious scholar provided an apologetic explanation for this: Hamas Members of Parliament participate in the legislative council to ensure that no law that runs contrary to Islamic precepts is promulgated.[7] Participation in the Palestinian Authority political framework thus falls under the doctrinal category of makruh—detestable actions that nonetheless might be needed to secure the larger, collective interests of Islam. This position may in fact be informed by fatwas that Lebanese salafist clerics have proclaimed in order to allow salafist voters to participate in national elections and to help deny Hezbollah a political victory. In any case, it constitutes a defense of Hamas’s actions, not of the electoral political system to which Hamas, as a political organization, claims to adhere. As such, it underlines the merely temporary accommodation of Hamas to this Palestinian political system. Additionally, it also underscores that the rivalry between Hamas and salafist-jihadism is rooted in differing assessments of their respective current interests, and not in principle.

(2) Socially, Hamas has indeed engaged in a process of Islamization, surrounding Gazan society within an Islamic framework—from banning alcohol consumption for Muslims, to closing entertainment and other establishments deemed un-Islamic, to fostering and promoting activities focused on spreading Islamic sensibilities and values.[8] By pursuing this path, Hamas appears to be striving to fulfill considerable aspects of the salafist understanding of the concept of al-amr bi-l-maruf wa-l-nahi an al-munkar—the call for virtue and the admonishing of vice. Still, salafist critics point out that Hamas’s social agenda is compromised by the Palestinian movement’s compliance with civil law and justified on the basis that it serves the public interest. In the salafist view, a purist, more authentic implementation of the sharia ought to be restricted to the measures stipulated by Islamic jurisprudence, and declared to be, in effect, solely in obedience to the divine order and not man-made law.

In reaction to this criticism, Hamas supporters once again haven’t sought to contend with the salafi-jihadists by articulating an alternative principle. Instead, they’ve complained that their salafist critics are holding Hamas to a higher standard than the one that’s been applied by salafists virtually anywhere else (with the exception of Saudi Arabia, from where much of such criticism originates). Hamas also invokes the approach of tadarruj (graduality) or tadarrujiyyah (gradualism) in its multi-faceted efforts to educate Palestinian society in Islamic law and to introduce punishments mandated by Islamic jurisprudence. Most of Hamas’s salafist-jihadist critics appear to reject this gradualism as an unwarranted historical innovation in Islamic jurisprudence that is not rooted in the pure ways and practices of Islam’s venerable ancestors. In response to these salafist-jihadist criticisms, Hamas’s defenders resort themselves to salafist principles and modes of argumentation, seeking to provide counter-examples from the actions of the Prophet Muhammad that justify their gradualist strategy. As such, Hamas’s ideological champions have sought to portray it as agreeing in principle with salafist-jihadist doctrine, but disagreeing merely on procedural aspects.

(3) With salafist-jihadism as a whole presently consumed with attacking and disparaging Shiism in its rituals and beliefs, it is not surprising that it also denounces Hamas for its cordial relations and alliance with Hezbollah, Iran, and Syria. (Salafi-jihadist ideologues reject Hamas’s relations with the former two on the basis of their Shia character, and they reject Hamas’s connections to Syria on the basis of the Alawite sectarian identity of the state’s leader and his inner circle.) Hamas’s relations with these actors, compounded with Hamas’s stated and implied rejection of al-Qaeda overtures, amount to a complete transgression against the salafist-jihadist understanding of the concept of al-wala wa-l-bara, (allegiance to Muslims, and rejection of non-Muslims).[9] Further to this, a few of Hamas’s harsher salafist critics have even accused it of being a propagator of Shiism in the Sunni world.

As one consequence of the pressures of this salafist assault, the rhetoric of Hamas’s defenders on the Shiite question has changed dramatically in the past few years. Whereas they once defended Hamas’s alliances with Shiites on the basis of the principle of pan-Islamic solidarity, nowadays they provide a more nuanced explanation, claiming that such alliances are a practical necessity in the absence of alternatives. Furthermore, a broad-based effort to reconfirm Hamas’s Sunni credentials seems to be underway, with Hamas-affiliated forums replete with Sunni doctrinal works (with a preponderance of salafist standards), and with the occasional denunciation of Shiite faith and practice. Hamas’s change of perspective on the Shiite question is also evident in the virtual absence of Hezbollah flags at Hamas events, in contrast with a recent past in which these yellow flags competed with Hamas’s own. Once again, Hamas strives to cast its position as fundamentally in agreement with its salafist critics, albeit with operational distinctions.

(4) The core objection that many salafist-jihadists address to Hamas is the latter’s current curtailment of active military jihad. Long gone are the days when Hamas used to dispatch its suicide bombers for lethal operations in Israel. Also long gone are the days when Hamas persistently launched its homemade rockets to hit random targets in Israeli towns near Gaza. Instead, Hamas, its Islamist critics complain, is now engaged in interdicting resistance operations that salafist-jihadist cells intend to undertake, serving effectively as a border guard for Israel.

Hamas supporters are seemingly unanimous in their rejection of this salafi-jihadist objection. Hamas, from their perspective, has and will engage in jihad when it deems it necessary and useful. When it does, it clearly has divine support: popular accounts of the participation of an army of angels in the December 2008–January 2009 confrontation with the IDF are exchanged and accepted as articles of truth. From Hamas’s perspective, the Cast Lead confrontation alone ought to humble or discredit its critics. Here, too, Hamas’s response reveals that it is in basic agreement with its salafist critics on matters of principle.

In the aftermath of Hamas’s suppression of salafi-jihadist elements at the Ibn Taymiyya mosque in Gaza in August 2009, Hamas’s salafist critics have ramped-up their attacks on the Palestinian Islamist movement. The fact that Qassam fighters participated in the suppression of Abu al-Nur al-Maqdisi’s group has meant that all of Hamas—not just its leadership—has been the target of the salafist-jihadist’s wrath. Islamist cyberspace has since been flooded with a wave of anti-Hamas publications with such titles as The Truth about Hamas, The Dissipation of Confusion about Hamas, An Alert on the Lies of Hamas, and Hamas Destroys its Image. The arguments presented in these tracts are repetitive and simple. This, in addition to the ubiquity of these anti-Hamas tracts, may in part account for their apparent ideological potency.


Yet despite salafism’s virulent anti-Hamas rhetoric, it would be a mistake to view the two movements as irreconcilably at odds with each other. In fact, even though Hamas has demonstrated its willingness to defend its political interests with violence, Hamas in recent years has grown closer to its salafi-jihadist critics than ever before in terms of its ideological outlook. This has been, in part, a consequence of Hamas permitting and even encouraging through its Islamization policies the spread of salafist sentiments and ideology within its ranks. Hamas’s approach has thus created an increasingly unstable ideological situation in Gaza that will, at the very least, pose challenges for the future rule of Hamas’s current leadership, unless it, or the next generation of Hamas leaders, moves openly to embrace salafist ideology for themselves.

Furthermore, and perhaps far more crucially, in its efforts to justify and to defend its policies and its rule in Gaza, Hamas has consistently conceded ideological primacy to its salafist-jihadist detractors, albeit indirectly and reluctantly. This, in effect, is bringing about the convergence and homogenization of the Islamist universe within Gaza, in a framework defined increasingly by salafism, and not by Hamas. In fact, the nature of the rivalry between the gradualist and revolutionary forms of Islamist militancy is fast becoming less about principle and content, and more about method and form, with salafist-jihadism successfully promoting its precepts as normative. Seen in this light, Hamas can hardly be considered an ideological bulwark or firewall against salafi-jihadism.

These developments in Gaza have potentially far-reaching consequences for Islamism’s future as a whole. Today, the Islamist scene is still dominated by two major ideological and organizational trends: organizations such as Hamas that are born out of the Muslim Brotherhood and that remain more-or-less within its sphere; and formations adhering to one of the multiple expressions of salafism. In the competition between these two broad-based trends, the Brotherhood, as the oldest and most well-established of the two movements, may still have certain organizational advantages. But salafist ideology has a distinctly more potent and coherent outlook that, in many contexts, appears to have gained the momentum.

That salafism seems to have seized the ideological upper-hand in Gaza is potentially indicative of where the overall struggle between the Brotherhood and salafism is heading. After all, Hamas is the ultimate Muslim Brotherhood success story: Never before has a component of the Brotherhood movement gained and wielded power for as long as Hamas has. It is also extremely significant that this Brotherhood success has occurred in Palestine, with its symbolic and catalytic power. Yet despite these successes, Hamas has been unable to impose its Brotherhood-inspired ideology on Gazan society as the essential expression of Islamism. Hamas and the Brotherhood as a whole have furthermore been incapable of supplying any substantive ideological alternative to salafism other than the claim that they are proceeding in the same direction that salafism is, albeit gradually. Salafist ideology thus remains effectively unchecked by the Brotherhood; in fact, if the developments in Gaza are any indication, the Brotherhood’s gradualist approach has only served to clear the way for salafism’s coming ascendancy in the Islamist universe.

This article appeared in Volume 9 of Current Trends in Islamist Ideology published by Hudson Institute.
Keywords: Hamas, Al-Qaeda, Salafi-Jihadi, Gaza, Muslim Brotherhood.

NOTES:
[1] A prominent illustration of the ongoing assault is demonstrated by al-Falluja Islamic Forums, the flagship of the salafist-jihadist web presence, which has since maintained a dedicated section in Arabic, with the title “forum of the media raid of the martyr Abu al-Nur al-Maqdisi.” http://www.alfaloja.info/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=73.


[2] A demonstration of this latter transformation survives in the name of the Islamic Jihad Organization, which was founded in the 1970s in Palestine, in a cultural scene that required that the organization designate itself as Islamic. Without this qualifier, a “jihad organization” would’ve been in principle indistinguishable from its non-Islamist rivals.

[3] See for example http://www.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/1...24EE372117.htm, a television interview in Arabic, in which Mishal underlines the “fundamental differences” between Hamas and salafist-jihadism.


[4] See for example “Ismail Haniyah: Hamas does not want to establish an Islamic Emirate in Gaza” [in Arabic], 14 December 2009, http://www.elnashra.com/news-1-380944.html.


[5] For a review of the phases through which this conflict has evolved, see H. Mneimneh, The Jihadist International: Al Qaeda's Advance in the Levant (May 1, 2009),,http://www.aei.org/paper/100015.


[6] See for example “A debate on al-hakimiyyah and the Emirate: Hamas and Jund Ansar Allah as examples” [in Arabic] on Muntadayat Shumukh al-Islam, a prominent Salafist-Jihadist bulletin board, http://shamikh.org/vb/showthread.php?t=49736.


[7] Samih Dallul, a Hamas-supported cleric and host of religious programs on al Aqsa’s television station engaged Hamas’s critics at numerous occasions with an elaboration of the position. See, for example, the debate chronicled on shabakat al-rayan li-l-hiwar, between Dallul and a salafist critic, http://www.jehadway.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=1.


[8] An example of a critical report on these measures can be found in “Hamas products in the Strip: A self-styled call for virtue gang chases the youth and the flags of Fath” (October 4, 2007), http://www.palvoice.com/popup.php?id=3526.


[9] An example of the Salafist critique of Hamas on this subject is presented in Arabic at “Gaining allies does not justify aggressing al-wala wal-bara’” (February 18, 2008), http://www.muslm.net/vb/archive/index.php/t-281038.html.

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Old 12-28-2010, 12:18 AM
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Originally Posted by New Ron View Post
The ONLY horse crap are the muslims and Turks like you who HATE Jews so much, you didnt want them to have their own state on Land that God almighty gave them.

Sadly your Qu'ran & Hadith does have anti Jewish sluring, calling Jews Pigs, apes, how do you think a muslim who reads this feels little by little about Jews,unless all muslims were saints, which they are not, they would not be able to think for themselves, look at you, all you come to do is attack us, but you dont care for Israel, as those muslim before you have done on this thread! Have you seen how the Islamist AKP party behaves toward Israel, as opposed to the previous secular govts have?
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Coincidence that those who follow Islam to the letter are always very anti Jews, and those muslims who dont follow Islam to the letter are always more accepting?
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You better watch your mouth over here
, this is an ISRAELI MILITARY FORUM! You can send your flotillas and your running mouths to Israel, and your HAMas and hezbollahs, and PLO against the infidels all you want, but they will ALL be destroyed one after the other!



Very first thing...I am a PAKISTANI..Get that..Yeah Thanks.

Who in the Bloody Hell told you that I hate 'Jews'?????

And who told you that I came here to attack you (Israel or Jews)??? Prejudging others is itself a 'Failure' of Argument..Mr 'Super Moderator'.

Where in my any of post I shown hatred towards Israel or Jews??? Can you show me???Thanks.

Sorry but let me Enlighten you here..
Those you study Islam do not hate Jews.Those who DO NOT study Islam and are brainwashed by any so called Mullah can be haters of Jews.I studied Islam as I told you in my earlier post.I don't hate Jews.Do you think Talibans represent Islam???? HELL NO.Don't just go to 'Anti-Islam' sites that quoting Quran, out of its context and without explanation, and trying to prove that Muslims are commanded to hate Jews/Christians/Infidels etc etc.

Why do I need to watch my mouth ???? Did I say anything offensive??? Please show me and I will apologize.
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Old 12-28-2010, 12:54 AM
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I understand that Muslims don't worship a moon deity, per se; however, the deity that Muslims call allah is a vestige of the pre-Islamic, Arabian pantheon of pagan deities. Islam is in fact just another monotheistic pagan religion. The deity of the Jews (Abraham, Issac, and Israel) is not now, nor ever was, nor ever will be the pagan deity of Islam, known as allah. This is why the Jews in Arabia would never accept Muhammad as a true prophet of their G-D. They considered Muhammad a false prophet because he came to them with false teachings from a 'strange and foreign god.' The deity that appeared to the whole nation of Israel at Sinai was not the pagan deity that Muslims call allah. Islam's deity is an evil djinn (principality) that was cast out paradise by HaShem for disobedience; and allah will never be allowed to return. The deity allah was created and is not a creator, but a great deceiver who has deceived over a billion humans. Fortunately, many Muslims in the ME are starting to see the light and are leaving the darkness of this pagan cult, even at risk to their own lives.



Well, what is that ????
'Allah' is not an personal name.'Allah' is arabic translation of 'THE GOD'.If some pagan Arabs used to call their 'moon deity' as 'The God' (Allah) then what does it prove???Absolutely nothing.
Muslims believe the same ,ONLY ONE TRUE, GOD OF ADAM,Jesus,Mooses,Isaac and Muhammad.
Many 'Arabic-speaking' Christians call jesus as 'Son of Allah'.If you have a Bible in Arabic, look on page one in Genesis, and you will find the word "Allah" 17 times.I have also studied some Bible and doctrine of Christianity..We believe in same God/Allah that Jews believe in.We call HIM Allah (cuz Quran is in Arabic) and you call him with another name.Just write 'Is Allah a moon god' on google and go to the third result (Islamic awareness site) for complete detail on this topic.
You can also read this book :

"Yahweh, Jehovah, or Allah - What Is God's Real Name?" by Sheikh Shabir Ally.

As I said..I am here to enlighten others and get enlighten by others

To the bold part...Many Jews did convert to Islam after hearing the message of Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) But thats another topic I guess.
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Old 12-28-2010, 02:10 AM
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This is BULL****.

Well, considering this is your first statement, responding to New Ron's post, that in itself is disrespectful. There are ways to disagree with someone in a discussion, without cursing the poster. It turned me off immediately from anything that you said after that, tells me that you are a kid or you are someone who is just looking for a fight. Just like the statement Mr Super Moderator!!

But, I've learned how to get along with people whom I don't agree with and I'm still here, I fear that won't be the same for your though. G

Grow up or stop being a troll, whichever one applies and remember one thing, you started the "fight".

odie072
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Although severely wounded, Nemo crawled to his master and covered him with his body.
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Old 12-28-2010, 02:11 AM
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Well, what is that ????
'Allah' is not an personal name.'Allah' is arabic translation of 'THE GOD'.If some pagan Arabs used to call their 'moon deity' as 'The God' (Allah) then what does it prove???Absolutely nothing.
Muslims believe the same ,ONLY ONE TRUE, GOD OF ADAM,Jesus,Mooses,Isaac and Muhammad.
Many 'Arabic-speaking' Christians call jesus as 'Son of Allah'.If you have a Bible in Arabic, look on page one in Genesis, and you will find the word "Allah" 17 times.I have also studied some Bible and doctrine of Christianity..We believe in same God/Allah that Jews believe in.We call HIM Allah (cuz Quran is in Arabic) and you call him with another name.Just write 'Is Allah a moon god' on google and go to the third result (Islamic awareness site) for complete detail on this topic.
You can also read this book :

"Yahweh, Jehovah, or Allah - What Is God's Real Name?" by Sheikh Shabir Ally.

As I said..I am here to enlighten others and get enlighten by others

To the bold part...Many Jews did convert to Islam after hearing the message of Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) But thats another topic I guess.

No the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is not the same as that of Islam. Islam forbids the open study of Hebrew and Christian texts and the critical comparison of these texts against the Quran and Hadith.

I sir have studied Islam for many years so do not think you are going to pull any slight of hand with me or lie to me. You have already lied in your above posts as to what Muhammad teaches in the Quran and Hadith. I will hold you to the facts of his teachings and not let you use abrogation and deception to say whatever you wish here. Stick to facts you now have two violation and a third means a permanent ban!!!


Quote:
To the bold part...Many Jews did convert to Islam after hearing the message of Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) But thats another topic I guess.

Yes; and those Jews that refused, Muhammad order the unarmed men that had surrendered slaughter, their women put into slavery along with their young children. Then people like you come along and tell us how we all serve the same God. Muslims like you point fingers about slavery that took place in the USA before the slaves were set free yet Muslims in this 21st Century still practice slavery that can be found by any simple search on the internet. You want to play with me on this subject Auzer you are going to get burned. I have met many like you before in my 61 years and they all have the same story like broken records.
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The LORD bless you and keep you;
The LORD make His face to shine upon you and be gracious to you;
The LORD lift up His countenance upon you and give you peace.

Asymmetric Warfare It’s not just for the “Other Guys”


Last edited by Paparock; 12-28-2010 at 02:47 AM..
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Old 12-28-2010, 03:10 AM
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No the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is not the same as that of Islam. Islam forbids the open study of Hebrew and Christian texts and the critical comparison of these texts against the Quran and Hadith.

I sir have studied Islam for many years so do not think you are going to pull any slight of hand with me or lie to me. You have already lied in your above posts as to what Muhammad teaches in the Quran and Hadith. I will hold you to the facts of his teachings and not let you use abrogation and deception to say whatever you wish here. Stick to facts you now have two violation and a third means a permanent ban!!!


Quote:
To the bold part...Many Jews did convert to Islam after hearing the message of Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) But thats another topic I guess.

Yes; and those Jews that refused, Muhammad order the unarmed men that had surrendered slaughter, their women put into slavery along with their young children. Then people like you come along and tell us how we all serve the same God. Muslims like you point fingers about slavery that took place in the USA before the slaves were set free yet Muslims in this 21st Century still practice slavery that can be found by any simple search on the internet. You want to play with me on this subject Auzer you are going to get burned. I have met many like you before in my 61 years and they all have the same story like broken records.


Well,Muslims believe that Allah is the God of Adam,Isaac,Jesus etc.Muslims are taught this.I don't know why you have a problem with this? Yeah,I know there are few differences b/w Islam and Judaism but why fight over this? We are are worshipers of Same God and this brings us close.And Islam forbids study of Other sacred texts and their critical comparison to Islam???? I would humbly dare to disagree with you here sir.If thats the case then why you find all these Muslim apologists like Naik,Shabir Ally etc etc..Don't they know that? I myself have some knowledge about Bible and I studied Christian doctrine (Trinity) and compared it to Islam.

And about killing of Jews etc..Sir those were political fights.But this doesn't prove that Muslims worship moon deity etc
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Old 12-28-2010, 03:37 AM
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[quote=Paparock;83054]
I sir have studied Islam for many years so do not think you are going to pull any slight of hand with me or lie to me. You have already lied in your above posts as to what Muhammad teaches in the Quran and Hadith. I will hold you to the facts of his teachings and not let you use abrogation and deception to say whatever you wish here. Stick to facts you now have two violation and a third means a permanent ban!!!

Well,its good you've studied Islam.Hope I will get a chance to study Judaism someday..right Now I am studying Christianity and mainly NT.I have never lied.I just said that Islam DOES NOT says to kill Jews/Christians.Instead Islam orders Muslims to do justice with Jews/Christians etc.
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Old 12-28-2010, 04:41 AM
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[quote=Auzer;83061]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paparock View Post
I sir have studied Islam for many years so do not think you are going to pull any slight of hand with me or lie to me. You have already lied in your above posts as to what Muhammad teaches in the Quran and Hadith. I will hold you to the facts of his teachings and not let you use abrogation and deception to say whatever you wish here. Stick to facts you now have two violation and a third means a permanent ban!!!

Well,its good you've studied Islam.Hope I will get a chance to study Judaism someday..right Now I am studying Christianity and mainly NT.I have never lied.I just said that Islam DOES NOT says to kill Jews/Christians.Instead Islam orders Muslims to do justice with Jews/Christians etc.


Answer me; then why did Muhammad teach the following???

Bukhari:V4B52N176"Allah's Apostle said, 'You Muslims will fight the Jews till some of them hide behind stones. The stones will betray them saying, "O Abdullah (slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him."'"

Bukhari:V4B52N177"Allah's Apostle said, 'The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."'"

Qur'an 59:17"Both [Jews and Satan] will go into the Fire of Hell, dwelling therein forever. Such is the reward of the Zalimun (disbelievers and polytheists)."

Qur'an 3:85"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (Surrender), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who are losers." Qur'an 3:87 "Of such the reward is that on them (rests) the curse of Allah, of His angels, and of all men, all together. In that will they dwell; nor will their penalty of doom be lightened."

Bukhari:V9B84N59"Allah's Apostle said, 'I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah." Whoever says this will save his property and his life from me.'"

You said we worship the same God but if you told the truth then why did Muhammad say the above and current Muslims attack Israel trying to keep the Third Temple of Israel from being rebuilt???


Quote:Now I am studying Christianity and mainly NT

I started studying Christianity at University level in 1967. Let's see that makes it 43 years now. You should check out http://israelmilitary.net/showthread.php?t=3695
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Last edited by Paparock; 12-28-2010 at 04:55 AM..
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Old 12-28-2010, 09:36 AM
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[quote=Paparock;83065]
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Answer me; then why did Muhammad teach the following???

Bukhari:V4B52N176"Allah's Apostle said, 'You Muslims will fight the Jews till some of them hide behind stones. The stones will betray them saying, "O Abdullah (slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him."'"

Bukhari:V4B52N177"Allah's Apostle said, 'The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."'"

Qur'an 59:17"Both [Jews and Satan] will go into the Fire of Hell, dwelling therein forever. Such is the reward of the Zalimun (disbelievers and polytheists)."

Qur'an 3:85"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (Surrender), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who are losers." Qur'an 3:87 "Of such the reward is that on them (rests) the curse of Allah, of His angels, and of all men, all together. In that will they dwell; nor will their penalty of doom be lightened."

Bukhari:V9B84N59"Allah's Apostle said, 'I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah." Whoever says this will save his property and his life from me.'"

You said we worship the same God but if you told the truth then why did Muhammad say the above and current Muslims attack Israel trying to keep the Third Temple of Israel from being rebuilt???


Quote:Now I am studying Christianity and mainly NT

I started studying Christianity at University level in 1967. Let's see that makes it 43 years now. You should check out .......

Out of all your referrences, I picked the bold one as a specimen.Now sir have you read the whole chapter 59???? It is 'Surah Al Hashr' of Quran.Did you read 'Tafsir' of this surah? What is it about? What God is saying to Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W)? Can I humbly ask you the source of your translation??? cause I guess verse 17 is talking about hypocrites and satan not the Jews.( I can be wrong ,if you kindly give me your translation source then I can clarify and enlighten you better) thanks..!!!

I checked your source and I laughed (no disrespect) .Do you really expect us Muslims to believe Sam Shamoun??????? Sir,I have read his (almost) ALL articles..I am a regular visitor to his site.But I always have found a sound rebuttal to his articles ( to my personal satisfaction). Mr Sam Shamoun is so so so much Anti-Islam that his articles are biased and hate filled.I like to read the work of Dr James White or Dr William Craig.
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Old 12-28-2010, 10:17 AM
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[quote=Auzer;83072]
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Originally Posted by Paparock View Post


Out of all your referrences, I picked the bold one as a specimen.Now sir have you read the whole chapter 59???? It is 'Surah Al Hashr' of Quran.Did you read 'Tafsir' of this surah? What is it about? What God is saying to Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W)? Can I humbly ask you the source of your translation??? cause I guess verse 17 is talking about hypocrites and satan not the Jews.( I can be wrong ,if you kindly give me your translation source then I can clarify and enlighten you better) thanks..!!!

I checked your source and I laughed (no disrespect) .Do you really expect us Muslims to believe Sam Shamoun??????? Sir,I have read his (almost) ALL articles..I am a regular visitor to his site.But I always have found a sound rebuttal to his articles ( to my personal satisfaction). Mr Sam Shamoun is so so so much Anti-Islam that his articles are biased and hate filled.I like to read the work of Dr James White or Dr William Craig.
Your wrong, you are full of disrespect, no matter what you are talking about. You are insolent, condescending and couldn't have an civil, intellectual discussion if your reputation depended upon it. This is what we expect from a true follower of Islam. Keep proving us right, keep laughing, keep cursing and keep avoiding the questions that your asked. Someone who is used to telling lies(or avoiding) when it comes to defending his "religion". Just sitting down and talking means nothing to you. You are someone who will try to demean anyone, when the conversation does not go his way.

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Old 12-28-2010, 10:51 AM
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Auzer as you have total disrespect for my forum staff
there are no more warnings .. your done
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Old 12-28-2010, 01:45 PM
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Exclamation Ofcourse you are a Pakistani, what else?

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Very first thing...I am a PAKISTANI..Get that..Yeah Thanks.

Oh yeah I got that part, it showed itself and its ugly sides so clearly so far, you could just smell Pakistani all over the place.

We wont fall into your darkness, as you have yourself. Islam has proven itself in actions, and its actions are negative, believe me if muslims around the world loved Jews so much they would have recognized Israel by now. Actions again, speak louder than words.

If the muslims had behaved in a peaceful manner, most of us here would have ignored even anything negative in the teachings, because actions is what matters, but because of Islamic actions since the time of Mohammad UNTIL TODAY many of us decided to find out what is it with Islam anyway!

And you came all the way from Pakistan to California and still have your Pakistani attitude, this just PROVES to us what will happen, when muslims get a large enough minority in America, it will turn into Americanistan.

UGH just the thought of it makes me want to vommit!
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Old 12-28-2010, 06:01 PM
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Muslims believe the same ,ONLY ONE TRUE, GOD OF ADAM,Jesus,Mooses,Isaac and Muhammad.

Too bad you were banned, but unfortunately, just because Muhammad and Muslims make that claim does not mean that it is true. Muhammad falsely claimed that Deut. 8:18-19 predicted his coming. Wrong; no gentile could fulfill this prophecy, and the progeny of Ishmael are intermarried gentiles. Again Muhammad claimed to be the 'comforter' spoken about in John 14:16, but in John 14:26 it is explained that the predicted 'comforter would be the Ruach Ha Codesh sent from HaShem and not another human. If Muhammad (or Muslims in general) really understood what was written, they (all involved) wouldn't have made such a$$inine, and absolutely false claims. Couple this with Muhammad's giving the false recitations that are now known as the 'Satanic Verses' in Surah 53, and one can easily see that Muhammad was anything but a true prophet sent by HaShem.
Quote:
Many 'Arabic-speaking' Christians call jesus as 'Son of Allah'.If you have a Bible in Arabic, look on page one in Genesis, and you will find the word "Allah" 17 times.I have also studied some Bible and doctrine of Christianity..We believe in same God/Allah that Jews believe in.We call HIM Allah (cuz Quran is in Arabic) and you call him with another name.Just write 'Is Allah a moon god' on google and go to the third result (Islamic awareness site) for complete detail on this topic.
You can also read this book :

"Yahweh, Jehovah, or Allah - What Is God's Real Name?" by Sheikh Shabir Ally.
I'm not responsible for the limitations of the Arabic language in being translated from either the Hebrew or the Greek. Most Islamic apologetics are very weak when understanding the symbolism behind some of their ridiculous attempts at reinterpreting passages in the Torah/Tanach or the Brit Hadasha. Maybe this is because the Qur'an does not contain such elaborate symbolism, along with the fact that Muhammad and many of Islam's early converts were illiterate and couldn't study the above works properly (the American 'prophet,' Joseph Smith made many of the same mistakes that Muhammad did as well). There are far too many examples in the Qur'an itself that expose the fact that the imp demon allah is not the same deity as HaShem; Yhwh; Jehovah; Adonai; Elyon; El Shaddai; or any other verbal descriptions of the Deity of Judaism. The term allah is just a generic term that can apply to any pagan deity, and the Muslim claim that allah is that same deity of the Hebrew Sinai experience is just a damnable lie from the pit. Just because you Muslims make the claim does not make it true. Islam is surrounded by more pagan iconography (the Hajj itself is based on paganism) than even the Roman Catholic Church; and that is really going far. I really don't care that Islam is a pagan religion; I just pay attention to the growing radical and violent movement within the ummah which is very much a real definition of contemporary Islam on this planet at this time in history.
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