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Religion Discuss religious beliefs.

View Poll Results: What is your religion/belief system?
Christianity 54 32.14%
Islam 16 9.52%
Judaism 44 26.19%
Hinduism 8 4.76%
Sikhism 1 0.60%
Atheist 10 5.95%
Agnostic 9 5.36%
Buddhism 5 2.98%
Paganism 1 0.60%
Other [Please State] 20 11.90%
Voters: 168. You may not vote on this poll

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  #21  
Old 11-06-2006, 04:38 PM
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Welcome, feel free to post and participate.
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  #22  
Old 11-16-2006, 07:16 AM
Zilam Zilam is offline
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Im about 95% Christian, 4% Jew, and 1% muslim. I borrow from all three to make my own beleif system.
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  #23  
Old 11-16-2006, 06:12 PM
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How would you call your religion Zilman?
And which kind of Christianity do you feel more confortable?
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  #24  
Old 11-16-2006, 11:11 PM
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I am an agnostic spiritualist...through different points in my life I have been a Muslim, a Catholic, a Zoroastrian, and a Baptist. Logic and reason don't point to a god, but my feeling of conscienceless gives me the feeling that if a bunch of hydrogens, carbons, and oxygens can feel like I feel then perhaps there is something we can't perceive through our ordinary senses.
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  #25  
Old 11-17-2006, 05:16 PM
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Sohrab you do realize that if you publicly say the things you are saying here in front of Iranian government officials you may foriet your life right?

Last edited by Paparock; 11-17-2006 at 07:02 PM..
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  #26  
Old 11-17-2006, 05:58 PM
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If I was in Iran in front of a government official I would only think these things. Thankfully in the United States I can say these things.
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  #27  
Old 11-18-2006, 12:02 AM
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Rascal, you are preaching to the choir
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  #28  
Old 11-18-2006, 03:31 AM
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Default Ahhhhh

So you are here in the USA taking advantage of the freedoms the evil Satan America offers. For how long? 1st, 2nd generation or immigrant?

So let me refrase my question. Do you openly speak of your unbelief in Islam anylonger and your secular beliefs around fellow Iranians here in the USA or Muslims in your community or do you hide it out of fear?

"Logic and reason don't point to a god", there are hundreds of thousands if not millions of scientists that disagree with that statement.

Now that we know you are safe from your brother Iranians (due to your views) that actually live in Iran dare I ask how active you are here in seeking a change for the better in regard to your native Iranian brothers and sisters plight?
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  #29  
Old 11-18-2006, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paparock View Post
So you are here in the USA taking advantage of the freedoms the evil Satan America offers. For how long? 1st, 2nd generation or immigrant?

So let me refrase my question. Do you openly speak of your unbelief in Islam anylonger and your secular beliefs around fellow Iranians here in the USA or Muslims in your community or do you hide it out of fear?

"Logic and reason don't point to a god", there are hundreds of thousands if not millions of scientists that disagree with that statement.

Now that we know you are safe from your brother Iranians (due to your views) that actually live in Iran dare I ask how active you are here in seeking a change for the better in regard to your native Iranian brothers and sisters plight?
I was born in Iran, and I will always love Iran, even if the government hates me. There is nothing I can do about that, this love is unconditional. As for speaking in front of my fellow Iranians, yes I know many Iranians who are Muslim or something else I don't hide it from them. I think you have the impression that all Muslims want to hurt people they don't agree with. Some of my closest family members are strict Muslims our love is not mitigated by this difference. Some of my best friends are Muslims, our friendship is not mitigated by this difference. Also to be honest with you, I get bored debating the existence of God. If you want to give me reasons to think for sure there is a God. I have heard them all before. The only one that has convinced me is my own conscience and that is a priori so I never really had a good outside source for that topic. The idea of the Abrahamic God who sits on a throne and makes arbitrary laws and then punishes us or rewards us infinitely and eternally for the slightest thing to me is ludicrous. You would never have me believe that even if I knew there was a God. The only way I seek change is by sharing my ideas with others. Hopefully people like some of them and choose to adopt them. Do you think I will give up my life in the US to go and fight the regime? I am not ready to do that right now. I would look like a carpet bagger anyway. Also I think at this very second the threat of the regime to the people is not more serious than the threat of war. This tension needs to fade away before any real change can be made. Westerners want Iranians to risk their livlihood and also the stability of the country to overthrow the IR. Not only is this unrealistic it isn't the best option. Revolutions aren't called revolutions because there is lasting change, they are revolutions because power eventually goes back to the other side. (this is traced back to the Thermidorean reaction in the French revolution) Iran doesn't need a revolution, it needs slow and steady widespread change through everyone of its major institutions.
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  #30  
Old 11-19-2006, 03:28 AM
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Default If you think you understand me, you are wrong Sohrab

"I think you have the impression that all Muslims want to hurt people they don't agree with."

No, I do not think "all" Muslims are that way. Only those that adhere to the fundamentalist teachings of Mohammed as taught in many of the more Orthodox Islamic religious schools for instance as in Wahhabi Islam.

Actually, it is your responsibility to discover the truth for yourself. If you sincerely seek truth, it is there to be found and if you have heard it all before then it is now your choice as a soul possessing free will to choose your own path but for every action there are consequences.

"The idea of the Abrahamic God who sits on a throne and makes arbitrary laws and then punishes us or rewards us infinitely and eternally for the slightest thing to me is ludicrous."

Obviously, you do not understand much about Abrahamic Law or an Abrahamic God if that is how you view what happens. All that is obeys laws. We may not understand the laws or how they work but all that is obeys. Take physics, there are things called the laws of physics that all matter obeys to the point it does not obey. And why does it not always obey, actually it does but it takes us stupid humans a long time to understand the laws more subtle nuances that alter or mortify the base laws. For instance, did you know that matter is never destroyed? If not by studying that you might come to understand how childish it is to blame God for your or others freely made decisions. You are not a robot so if you expect God to supply a perfect world then the first thing that has to go is your individual right to make any other decision other than what God says you can. They you could sing "hello Mr. Roboto all day long but never make any decision of your own. Now that sounds like a ludicrously conceived world.

Without the existence on this plane being flawed, no one could have choice. You could not understand what good is if evil did not exist nor could you understand darkness if there was only light. For choice to be, there must be difference as the Chinese said thousands of years ago in the form of yen and yang. As a soul, it is your right to make choices but with rights also come responsibilities and consequences and therefore existence as flawed as it is, as we know it for now. Maybe if you looked beyond self you might understand how little you understand.
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  #31  
Old 11-19-2006, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paparock View Post
"I think you have the impression that all Muslims want to hurt people they don't agree with."

No, I do not think "all" Muslims are that way. Only those that adhere to the fundamentalist teachings of Mohammed as taught in many of the more Orthodox Islamic religious schools for instance as in Wahhabi Islam.

Actually, it is your responsibility to discover the truth for yourself. If you sincerely seek truth, it is there to be found and if you have heard it all before then it is now your choice as a soul possessing free will to choose your own path but for every action there are consequences.

"The idea of the Abrahamic God who sits on a throne and makes arbitrary laws and then punishes us or rewards us infinitely and eternally for the slightest thing to me is ludicrous."

Obviously, you do not understand much about Abrahamic Law or an Abrahamic God if that is how you view what happens. All that is obeys laws. We may not understand the laws or how they work but all that is obeys. Take physics, there are things called the laws of physics that all matter obeys to the point it does not obey. And why does it not always obey, actually it does but it takes us stupid humans a long time to understand the laws more subtle nuances that alter or mortify the base laws. For instance, did you know that matter is never destroyed? If not by studying that you might come to understand how childish it is to blame God for your or others freely made decisions. You are not a robot so if you expect God to supply a perfect world then the first thing that has to go is your individual right to make any other decision other than what God says you can. They you could sing "hello Mr. Roboto all day long but never make any decision of your own. Now that sounds like a ludicrously conceived world.

Without the existence on this plane being flawed, no one could have choice. You could not understand what good is if evil did not exist nor could you understand darkness if there was only light. For choice to be, there must be difference as the Chinese said thousands of years ago in the form of yen and yang. As a soul, it is your right to make choices but with rights also come responsibilities and consequences and therefore existence as flawed as it is, as we know it for now. Maybe if you looked beyond self you might understand how little you understand.
Yes I do know about the conservation of matter and energy, but I don't see what that has to do with anything? Did you know that light acts as wave and a particle all at once? Also did you know that matter itself displayes wave properties that can be observed at high enough speeds? An electron acts as a wave even though it has mass because it travels at almost light speed. At the level of quantum mechanics the universe is more like statistical patterns then action and predetermined reaction. All that aside by arbitrary laws I mean stuff like the ten commandments not, laws of thermodynamics and what not.
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  #32  
Old 11-19-2006, 10:28 PM
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Default Why?

God has no arbitrary laws. God's "laws" are just like when your mother said to you do not touch the stove because it is hot and it will burn you. God's laws are a warning of consequence that will result according to your free will choice. Why do you blame God for consequences of your choices?

Rascal said it quite well in his last post. We hear Muslims say all the time how Islam is a Religion of Peace and that those that commit terror are but a tiny minority that pervert the true faith of Islam. Answer me then this. Since there are hundreds on millions of Muslims around the world with millions of Muslim Religious Leaders and thousands of Muslim Political Leaders at different levels in countries that surround this entire planet; why are especially the RELIGIOUS LEADERS (who should be OUTRAGED) at those that deliberately target and kill Muslim women and children with car bombs tearing their innocent flesh into bloody ribbons, beheading, torturing innocent non-Muslims well as Muslim civilians (show on Arab TV almost daily now) not SCREAMING around the planet for the Faithful to "put an end to such abomination and sacrilege against Islam" by a tiny minority if that is the truth. The World has been listening for a long time now to the silence coming out of Islam which could crush such a movement like an elephant steps on a bug if that desired it. What we see and hear are the Radical Imams preaching death to the Jews, Death to America, Death to the Infidel. Where are the mass demonstrations in the streets by Muslims in protest of the perversion of their faith by these tiny few that cause terror? They are there about publishing a cartoon they think reflected badly oh Mohammed. Do they care that there is a small minority perverting Islam and killing fellow Muslims in support of that perversion? Alternatively, perhaps is the minority in fact not a minority but the majority and supported by those “religious leaders”.
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  #33  
Old 11-20-2006, 04:19 AM
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Default Hey Rascal

Rascal, I knew little of Islam when all the S#$T hit the fan on 9/11. Muslims, and radical Islam and the whole thing were very little understood by me so I have been educating my self constantly since 9/11 being I am a voracious reader.

Basically what I have come to see is that if you say you believe in Islam and you are not a supporter of the violent version of “Jihad” that is meant to subdue all other religions and nations then you do not believe the fundamentalist teachings of Islam as set down by Mohammed in the Quran. It seems that the majority of Muslims belong to “Orthodox” side of Islam that believe that the Quran is the literal word of God. It seems also that the Orthodox view is that Islam is superior to all other religions and must be paid tribute to by any other monotheistic religion if they are to be left alive to live under the rule of Islam. There are also teachings that once a person has been presented the message of Islam Mohammed brought from God if a person or nation reject it then they are classed as “Infidel” which is similar to below human and is where the Palestinian children you see on Al Jazeera spouting about Jews being from monkeys and pigs. Those are the teachings the various “religious leaders” use to justify killing fellow Muslims because “they” have “betrayed” the faith in some way so therefore a faithful believer that kills them is not guilty under Islamic religious law (in the sight of God) of killing a fellow believer or even another human being but in fact is obeying the call of the faithful. It is very complicated and I am still learning but what it comes down to is the peaceful Islamists are like the people that say they are “Christians” go to places of “worship”, go through the motions but do not belive the Bible is the literal word of God or live the literal tenants of the belief in their daily life. It is an oversimplification but I hope it gives you some idea of the concepts I am seeing.

Islamic fundamentalism is explicitly and authentically anti-modern. Fundamentalist sects such as the Wahhabis, believe that Islam can only be kept pure when Muslims model their lives as closely as possible on Muhammad's example. The Wahhabis reject almost every form of religious and social modernization or innovation since about 950 A.D.

Jihad translates from Arabic as "struggle." While modern, moderate Muslims have tried to promote a definition of jihad that focuses primarily on a personal and collective struggle for spiritual improvement, the traditional concept of holy war has more currency around the world, for reasons which are perhaps obvious. Depending on who you're talking to, there are several possible justifications for jihad, including to rescue oppressed Muslims or to reclaim lands that were once Islamic (which includes the Middle East, and much of central and South Asia) from so-called "infidel" influence. The definition of infidel is also extremely fluid, and can include Jews, Christians and even Muslims.

"In reality Islam is a revolutionary ideology and programme which seeks to alter the social order of the whole world and rebuild it in conformity with its own tenets and ideals. 'Muslim' is the title of that International Revolutionary Party organized by Islam to carry into effect its revolutionary programme. And 'Jihad' refers to that revolutionary struggle and utmost exertion which the Islamic Party brings into play to acheive this objective."
--Sayeed Abdul A'la Maududi, Jihad in Islam p8

"Islam wishes to destroy all States and Governments anywhere on the face of the earth which are opposed to the ideology and programme of Islam regardless of the country or the Nation which rules it. The purpose of Islam is to set up a State on the basis of its own ideology and programme, regardless of which Nation assumes the role of the standard bearer of Islam or the rule of which nation is undermined in the process of the establishment of an ideological Islamic State."
--Sayeed Abdul A'la Maududi, Jihad in Islam p9


"Whoever says that Islam is free from terrorism or wants to differentiate between Islam and terrorism is committing Al Juhoud and that is Kufr Akbar – and will take them out of the fold of Islam.

The one who says ‘we should fight against terrorism’, he is fighting against Islam. We know very well that USA meant no one else by the term ‘terrorists’ but Islam and Muslims and the one who wants to avoid terrorism is avoiding Islam."

-- Al Muhajiroun (Bakir School of Thought) 6-21-2004


"Islam does not recognise any difference between the kuffar, they are either zhimmi (under the Islamic state) or mu’ahhed (has covenant with a Muslim), or he is harbi and has no sanctity for his life or wealth.

There is no such thing as an ‘innocent’ kafir, innocence is only applicable for the Muslims; do not say ‘innocent’ for the kafir, the most you can say for them is that they are ‘victims’. The Muslim however, is innocent even if he engages to fight and conquer the kafir, because he is fulfilling the shari’ah."

--Al Muhajiroun, (Bakir School), 6-21-2004


Kafir (or kāfir; plural Kuffar, kuffār) is an Arabic word meaning "denier" or "concealer." In a religious context it means a non-Muslim, and it is often used to mean "unbeliever" or "infidel". The noun kufr means "not believing in God"
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  #34  
Old 11-23-2006, 12:14 AM
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Quote:
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I don't think (I'm sure) Sohrab doesn't represent Islam and what it stands for in the ME,but he does seem to be in denial of the deapth of the problem Islam brings to the west as long as the current message is being practiced by muslims following these radical Imans/clerics.

It seems to be the all to common message from Islam.

I have been looking for along time for the good part of Islam ,and to date I have not seen the attraction or any good part.Can anyone give me examples?
I understand full well the problems Islamic societies' especially the Arab world's and more recently Iran. But were we differ is that you recognize a problem you choose to fight in the most brutish simple minded way. You can't destroy ideologies with violence. Look at Christianity... You guys want to fight Islam but you don't realize that the fight itself will only make the problem worse. I realize the the only way to mitigate these problems is through trade (of goods, and therefore ideas/culture.). Globalization will fix the problem far sooner than whatever you guys are advocating.
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  #35  
Old 11-23-2006, 02:38 AM
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Default Double Standards

Quote:
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I understand full well the problems Islamic societies' especially the Arab world's and more recently Iran. But were we differ is that you recognize a problem you choose to fight in the most brutish simple minded way. You can't destroy ideologies with violence. Look at Christianity... You guys want to fight Islam but you don't realize that the fight itself will only make the problem worse. I realize the the only way to mitigate these problems is through trade (of goods, and therefore ideas/culture.). Globalization will fix the problem far sooner than whatever you guys are advocating.
Double Standards are something Middle Easterners like to accuse non-Muslims of while they practice the same as a part of religious daily life. Christianity cut a bloody path around the world mainly through the offices of the Catholic Church. The "Protestants" thru Martin Luther broke away from The Catholic Church where at the time "Priests" told the believers what the Bible meant into today’s standard where individual interpretation of scripture is more the norm. Unfortunately, the Islamic faith seems stuck in the same mentality that fostered the Crusades. While Christianity today is far different from that which met Islam on the battlefields of the Middle East the mindset of the Islamic "fighters" of today have not changed for the better it seems but has actually degraded for the depraved acts so many of they take such great pride and joy in committing.

The Christian Religion has largely moved away from violence unlike the Islamic Religion. Those that resist Muslim nations today are doing so because the Muslim nations causing the problems refuse to follow international law, international inspection protocols to verify they are living up to their signed words as the civilized nations of the world are doing, and constantly threaten death and being wiped from the face of this Earth upon other member nations of the worlds international bodies.

You can sugar coat it all you want Sohrab but what the Muslim nations of the Middle East are offering the rest of the world today is not compromise but a choice between surrendering to the Islamic way or resist and be conquered by it in the end. Neither way is compromise but is the death of Freedom but to obey the Muslims way and some in this world say "NO WAY!"

If my parents generation had listened to the type of advise offered by Sohrab for dealing with Muslims in their time dealing with the threat of Nazi Germany we would all be speaking German and living under the Third Reich. Evil must be faced down for what it is not hidden from in hopes it will go away in time.

Last edited by Paparock; 11-23-2006 at 09:07 PM..
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  #36  
Old 01-16-2007, 02:43 PM
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I'm a christian (mostly evangelical)
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  #37  
Old 01-19-2007, 10:32 AM
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I am looking to commence my conversion to judaism shortly. It has been life choice that I have been considering for a long time and beleive it is now time. My family where Jewish imigrants from Germany in the late 1800's and remained Jewish until my Grandmother married an Anglican man and thats where Judaism stopped. My father is in the process of converting after marrying a Jewish lady in the States.
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Old 01-19-2007, 03:38 PM
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I am looking to commence my conversion to judaism shortly. It has been life choice that I have been considering for a long time and beleive it is now time. My family where Jewish imigrants from Germany in the late 1800's and remained Jewish until my Grandmother married an Anglican man and thats where Judaism stopped. My father is in the process of converting after marrying a Jewish lady in the States.
thats the kind of stories i like, when our people come back to the tribe, and not when some crazy rabbis go and convert some native from peru, india and africa!!!!
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Old 01-19-2007, 07:57 PM
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That´s why I like about Judaism, if someone want to convert, he must fight for it, so the convertion its sincere, not inducted.
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Old 01-19-2007, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
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I am looking to commence my conversion to judaism shortly. It has been life choice that I have been considering for a long time and beleive it is now time. My family where Jewish imigrants from Germany in the late 1800's and remained Jewish until my Grandmother married an Anglican man and thats where Judaism stopped. My father is in the process of converting after marrying a Jewish lady in the States.
We are on thwe same boat, Bro, May Hashem help us.
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