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  #1  
Old 05-10-2012, 07:46 AM
Greenblood07 Greenblood07 is offline
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Exclamation Is Saudi Air Force a threat to IAF?

Royal Saudi Air Force !

180+ F-15 Strike Eagle(s) (latest variants included)
24+ Eurofighter Typhoons (T-3)
84-100 Tornado(s) (Advance versions)

Supported by E-3 AWACS,Tankers for mid-air refueling, and C-130(s) for transportation etc.


The Saudi pilots are more "well-trained" than often perceived.They participated in Red Flags , Green Flags , exercises with Pakistan Air Force , Turkish Air Force , Egyptian Air Force etc ...


How do the members here perceive the Saudi threat here? The Kingdom has alot of money and it has one of the best military-equipment in the world.

Is Royal Saudi Air Force a threat to Israel? Or a rising threat?
  #2  
Old 05-10-2012, 08:27 AM
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Well they are not solid allies of Israel. So I would consider them to be a rising threat, at the very least I would keep a watchful eye on the Saudis capabilities and develop countermeasures.
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Old 05-10-2012, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Reichswehr View Post
Well they are not solid allies of Israel. So I would consider them to be a rising threat, at the very least I would keep a watchful eye on the Saudis capabilities and develop countermeasures.
"Solid Ally" ? Who , among Arabs , do you think can be Israel's solid Ally? Even a country like Turkey soured his relations with Israel. Take out nuclear factor , can Israel win a conventional war against Arabs today? Like it did in 1967? I think not!

Arabs are savage fighters but disorganized and without modern technology. But both of these weaknesses of Arabs are fading away day by day..
  #4  
Old 05-11-2012, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenblood07 View Post
"Solid Ally" ? Who , among Arabs , do you think can be Israel's solid Ally? Even a country like Turkey soured his relations with Israel. Take out nuclear factor , can Israel win a conventional war against Arabs today? Like it did in 1967? I think not!

Arabs are savage fighters but disorganized and without modern technology. But both of these weaknesses of Arabs are fading away day by day..
its fading because the US is selling the arab countrys top of the line weapons...
  #5  
Old 05-11-2012, 01:32 PM
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This does pose an interesting question for the IDF. Yes, many Arab militaries are well equipped.

But is the equipment well maintained? Is the maintenance performed by Western staff from defence contractors etc BAE Systems. If conflict breaks out, their employers may have evacuate their staff. After all many of the these guys are eyeing retirement and the cash. So they may not be interested hanging around, awaiting an Israeli counter strike.

Level of training? Some units are far better trained, than others. Who is providing the training? Local staff? What are their standards? Or do they rely heavily Western Military instructors or Private Military Contractors to provide training and instruction. Vindel provide training for the Saudi National Guard for an example.

Leadership? Are the leaders selected because of proven leadership skills and performance, or for their tribal and political connections and loyalty to the ruling elite? For example, at Australia's Royal Military College Duntroon, Kuwaiti officer cadets are often given the "Kuwaiti Pass", because they rarely meet the course standards. Similar stories also come from Sandhurst. No other foreign cadets are given any such "slack".

So it is not a real easy question to answer just by looking at ORBATS and Tech Data.

Last edited by Reichswehr; 05-11-2012 at 01:52 PM..
  #6  
Old 05-12-2012, 12:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reichswehr View Post
This does pose an interesting question for the IDF. Yes, many Arab militaries are well equipped.

But is the equipment well maintained? Is the maintenance performed by Western staff from defence contractors etc BAE Systems. If conflict breaks out, their employers may have evacuate their staff. After all many of the these guys are eyeing retirement and the cash. So they may not be interested hanging around, awaiting an Israeli counter strike.

Level of training? Some units are far better trained, than others. Who is providing the training? Local staff? What are their standards? Or do they rely heavily Western Military instructors or Private Military Contractors to provide training and instruction. Vindel provide training for the Saudi National Guard for an example.

Leadership? Are the leaders selected because of proven leadership skills and performance, or for their tribal and political connections and loyalty to the ruling elite? For example, at Australia's Royal Military College Duntroon, Kuwaiti officer cadets are often given the "Kuwaiti Pass", because they rarely meet the course standards. Similar stories also come from Sandhurst. No other foreign cadets are given any such "slack".

So it is not a real easy question to answer just by looking at ORBATS and Tech Data.
Interesting post. I also seriously under-estimated Saudi Arabia (I still do) but things aren't that bad for them as it seems. Now , according to data , approximately 67% of the "maintenance" staff is Saudi. Saudi Arabia is going towards complete "Saudinization" of their military. Saudis have struck a ToT deal with BAE systems. Saudi engineers , operators , mechanics , instructors etc etc are working with the BAE team....Saudis participated in Red flag and Green flag exercises on their own. This must prove something about their maintenance abilities.

The leadership problem is still there. Arabs are tribal societies...genuine leadership doesn't come up! Remember , Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is an absolute monarchy !

Plus : On other factor people don't realize.. Pakistan maintains a significant military presence in the Arab lands. Their nuclear program was funded by the Saudi monarch. Pakistanis actually fought against Israelis in previous wars ... Though its almost impossible...but what if UAE gave Pakistani pilots the permission to fly their top F-16 block 60 E/Fs in a conflict against Israel?

Pakistani pilots are among the best in the world. I know many (ex) American pilots and Air Force officers who have flown against or with Pakistani Air Force. According to them , Pakistanis are very,very hard opponent to face. Their experienced pilots are in no way any less than USAF's top guys...

Last edited by Greenblood07; 05-12-2012 at 01:16 AM..
  #7  
Old 05-12-2012, 01:54 AM
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Hope this thread doesn't degrade into another:

http://www.israelmilitary.net/showthread.php?t=18560

Links to facts would help this post greatly, if you can't post links, post where you found it (except other forums) and I will find it and post it for you.

Thanks

odie
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  #8  
Old 05-12-2012, 04:04 AM
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Sorry I mean the Vinnell Corporation provides training services to the Saudi Arabian National Guard (SANG). Vinnell is part of the Northrop Grumman Corporation.

http://www.vinnellarabia.net/

Last edited by Reichswehr; 05-12-2012 at 04:29 AM..
  #9  
Old 05-12-2012, 04:07 AM
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[/quote] Plus : On other factor people don't realize.. Pakistan maintains a significant military presence in the Arab lands. Their nuclear program was funded by the Saudi monarch. Pakistanis actually fought against Israelis in previous wars ... Though its almost impossible...but what if UAE gave Pakistani pilots the permission to fly their top F-16 block 60 E/Fs in a conflict against Israel?

Pakistani pilots are among the best in the world. I know many (ex) American pilots and Air Force officers who have flown against or with Pakistani Air Force. According to them , Pakistanis are very,very hard opponent to face. Their experienced pilots are in no way any less than USAF's top guys...[/quote]

That is a very good point. Many of the Gulf States maintain a shadow military of Pakistani mercenaries, lead by very competent professional officers and NCO's. Finding open source details on these groups is very hard to come by. But they are in the region, and could be tasked to conduct operations against Israel.
  #10  
Old 05-12-2012, 12:22 PM
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From what I'v heard, those Pakistani officers themselves have a very poor opinion of Saudi personnel, something which is consistent with Western officers' assesment of the same
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  #11  
Old 05-12-2012, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenblood07 View Post
Interesting post. I also seriously under-estimated Saudi Arabia (I still do) but things aren't that bad for them as it seems. Now , according to data , approximately 67% of the "maintenance" staff is Saudi. Saudi Arabia is going towards complete "Saudinization" of their military. Saudis have struck a ToT deal with BAE systems. Saudi engineers , operators , mechanics , instructors etc etc are working with the BAE team....Saudis participated in Red flag and Green flag exercises on their own. This must prove something about their maintenance abilities.
The fact that a foreign private contractor like BAE does the maintaince.....or worse still, facts like the DF-2 rocket batteries KSA possesses are staffed by Chinese engineers gives me a very good idea of Saudi defence professionals

Quote:
Arabs are savage fighters but disorganized and without modern technology. But both of these weaknesses of Arabs are fading away day by day..
You have it backwards IMHO. They have the technology, but they make very poor soldiers. They have a casual attitude unsuitable for modern warfare. Another example of the same is Kuwait, I base this on the comments of foreign officers who've served in both these countries.

Quote:
Pakistani pilots are among the best in the world. I know many (ex) American pilots and Air Force officers who have flown against or with Pakistani Air Force. According to them , Pakistanis are very,very hard opponent to face. Their experienced pilots are in no way any less than USAF's top guys...
If you are basing that on excercises, then I'd agree that Pakistan's best pilots are in no way less than USAF's REGULAR pilots. USAF pilots on excercises are on a normal rotation, unlike many other participating nations like Pakistan or even, India, whose best pilots tend to make the cut for such excercises.
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  #12  
Old 05-12-2012, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenblood07 View Post
"Solid Ally" ? Who , among Arabs , do you think can be Israel's solid Ally? Even a country like Turkey soured his relations with Israel. Take out nuclear factor , can Israel win a conventional war against Arabs today? Like it did in 1967? I think not!

Arabs are savage fighters but disorganized and without modern technology. But both of these weaknesses of Arabs are fading away day by day..
Based on what? Show me some evidence that arabs are "savage fighters" Please...they hide behind civlians and blow themselves up.
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  #13  
Old 05-12-2012, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Knaur View Post
The fact that a foreign private contractor like BAE does the maintaince.....or worse still, facts like the DF-2 rocket batteries KSA possesses are staffed by Chinese engineers gives me a very good idea of Saudi defence professionals
No one is saying that Saudis are great professional military. That is why there is a question-mark in the topic of this thread. Is RSAF a threat to IAF? Or a rising threat? Right now , Saudis might not be 100% self-sufficient in maintaining their fleet...but after 5 years or so? Who knows?

Quote:
You have it backwards IMHO. They have the technology, but they make very poor soldiers. They have a casual attitude unsuitable for modern warfare. Another example of the same is Kuwait, I base this on the comments of foreign officers who've served in both these countries.
No , they have the technology but now they have started "absorbing" technology. They are learning how to deploy their technology. In simple words..they are now learning to how to use their sword effectively. They make poor soldiers BECAUSE of lack of training. But I used the word "savage" fighters..which means that "violence" fighting is in their very nature. Arabs are tribal people. They are brave. Won't back down from a fight. They are savages .. BUT...now they are learning the techniques of 21st century warfare too and that is where the threat rises.



Quote:
If you are basing that on excercises , then I'd agree that Pakistan's best pilots are in no way less than USAF's REGULAR pilots. USAF pilots on excercises are on a normal rotation, unlike many other participating nations like Pakistan or even, India, whose best pilots tend to make the cut for such excercises.
No , I am not basing anything on exercises only. Also , no one sends their "best" pilots on Exercise. Don't know about India though...Yeah , you only send your experienced pilots on training programs...instructor programs etc...I am basing my opinion on the comments of U.S Air Force officers...People who actually "fought" with Pakistanis...I don't know if you know or not..but once in an exercise....Pakistani Air Force was able to break the formidable defences and was able to "hit" U.S aircraft carrier ... Also they just decimated 5 times larger Indian Air Force in previous wars ... The point I am trying to make is that the presence of Pakistani military in Arabian peninsula increase the threat to Israel. Unlike Arabs , Pakistanis are pretty well-trained , organized military. If you combine that with Arabs' technology (F-16s block 60 for example) ...This can become VERY lethal for Israel...A Kuwaiti/UAE pilot flying F-16 block 60 E/F against IAF would not be that big of a 'threat'..but a PAF F-16 pilot flying the most modern F-16 against IAF will be a very big threat to Israeli Air Force..You won't know "who" is flying the Air Craft. Pakistan won't declare any war on Israel but its men will be fighting the Israelis... That is the point I am making...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knaur View Post
From what I'v heard, those Pakistani officers themselves have a very poor opinion of Saudi personnel, something which is consistent with Western officers' assesment of the same
Yup. In an other forum , one Pakistani ex-pilot said that sometimes he felt like "throwing the (Arab) pilot out of the plane. You tell them something in the morning and in the evening , while flying the aircraft , they won't remember what you told them earlier in the morning"

Last edited by Greenblood07; 05-12-2012 at 07:37 PM..
  #14  
Old 05-12-2012, 08:30 PM
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The Saudis don't like Israel, but the two countries do have some common enemies: Hezbollah and Iran. And although Riyadh can be pretty sure the IDF isn't going to launch an attack out of the blue, they can't be so sure about the Iranians, who are much less pragmatic and predictable.
Obviously, the last thing Saudi Arabia wants is to have to fend off Israel and Iran simultaneously. It makes sense for them not to antagonize the Israelis at this time.
The worst possible outcome for Israel and the West would be a failure to derail the Iranian nuclear program, which would probably lead to the proliferation of nukes across the region. The aquisition of nukes by Saudi Arabia, Turkey and some other adversaries, or potential adversaries, of Israel, would be an unending nightmare. And many Americans are afraid that President Obama's inept Middle East posturing, semingly more concerned about the possibility of an Israeli strike against Iran than about the Iranian nuclear program itself, is taking us there.
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Old 05-12-2012, 11:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenblood07 View Post
No one is saying that Saudis are great professional military. That is why there is a question-mark in the topic of this thread. Is RSAF a threat to IAF? Or a rising threat? Right now , Saudis might not be 100% self-sufficient in maintaining their fleet...but after 5 years or so? Who knows?
It is not as if KSA exists in a vaccum wherein its capabilities will improve while those of others will remain static.

Quote:
No , they have the technology but now they have started "absorbing" technology. They are learning how to deploy their technology. In simple words..they are now learning to how to use their sword effectively. They make poor soldiers BECAUSE of lack of training. But I used the word "savage" fighters..which means that "violence" fighting is in their very nature. Arabs are tribal people. They are brave. Won't back down from a fight. They are savages .. BUT...now they are learning the techniques of 21st century warfare too and that is where the threat rises.
This nature makes them unperceptive to training. KSA personnel have an attitude wherein they see themselves as inherently superior, that is the perception of those who have interacted with them.


Quote:
No , I am not basing anything on exercises only. Also , no one sends their "best" pilots on Exercise. Don't know about India though...Yeah , you only send your experienced pilots on training programs...instructor programs etc...I am basing my opinion on the comments of U.S Air Force officers...People who actually "fought" with Pakistanis...I don't know if you know or not..but once in an exercise....Pakistani Air Force was able to break the formidable defences and was able to "hit" U.S aircraft carrier ... Also they just decimated 5 times larger Indian Air Force in previous wars ... The point I am trying to make is that the presence of Pakistani military in Arabian peninsula increase the threat to Israel. Unlike Arabs , Pakistanis are pretty well-trained , organized military. If you combine that with Arabs' technology (F-16s block 60 for example) ...This can become VERY lethal for Israel...A Kuwaiti/UAE pilot flying F-16 block 60 E/F against IAF would not be that big of a 'threat'..but a PAF F-16 pilot flying the most modern F-16 against IAF will be a very big threat to Israeli Air Force..You won't know "who" is flying the Air Craft. Pakistan won't declare any war on Israel but its men will be fighting the Israelis... That is the point I am making...
I believe it to be hogwash. Those myths have been debunked time and again on this forum Pakistanis hold too high an opinion of themselves.


Quote:
Yup. In an other forum , one Pakistani ex-pilot said that sometimes he felt like "throwing the (Arab) pilot out of the plane. You tell them something in the morning and in the evening , while flying the aircraft , they won't remember what you told them earlier in the morning"
I remember at least some years ago that for every solo Saudi AF flight that went up, a foreign instructor used to follow in a seperate flight for guidance. Hardly a growing reflection of their capabilities.
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Old 05-12-2012, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Knaur View Post
I believe it to be hogwash. Those myths have been debunked time and again on this forum Pakistanis hold too high an opinion of themselves.
"Pakistani presence in Arab lands increase the threat to Israel" .. What is myth in this premise of mine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vimana View Post
The Saudis don't like Israel, but the two countries do have some common enemies: Hezbollah and Iran. And although Riyadh can be pretty sure the IDF isn't going to launch an attack out of the blue, they can't be so sure about the Iranians, who are much less pragmatic and predictable.
Obviously, the last thing Saudi Arabia wants is to have to fend off Israel and Iran simultaneously. It makes sense for them not to antagonize the Israelis at this time.
The worst possible outcome for Israel and the West would be a failure to derail the Iranian nuclear program, which would probably lead to the proliferation of nukes across the region. The aquisition of nukes by Saudi Arabia, Turkey and some other adversaries, or potential adversaries, of Israel, would be an unending nightmare. And many Americans are afraid that President Obama's inept Middle East posturing, semingly more concerned about the possibility of an Israeli strike against Iran than about the Iranian nuclear program itself, is taking us there.
Iranians won't and they can't make a nuclear weapon. The cost would be too much. Israel will use its ballistic missiles , if it ever decide to strike alone. But U.S MUST BE on Israel's side. Iranians can retaliate pretty aggressively against any Israeli strike.
  #17  
Old 05-12-2012, 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Greenblood07 View Post
"Pakistani presence in Arab lands increase the threat to Israel" .. What is myth in this premise of mine?
You're shifting the goalpost here, that was not your original premise. Plus you use a lot of conjectures and hyperbole.
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Old 05-12-2012, 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Greenblood07 View Post
Well it WAS the main premise of mine. Pakistanis are WAY more capable than Arabs and their presence increases threat to Israel. What else is there in my post? You tell . . . .
This was your main premise -

Quote:
The Saudi pilots are more "well-trained" than often perceived.They participated in Red Flags , Green Flags , exercises with Pakistan Air Force , Turkish Air Force , Egyptian Air Force etc ...


How do the members here perceive the Saudi threat here? The Kingdom has alot of money and it has one of the best military-equipment in the world.
Not all of us have the advantage of making up facts as we please without citing what they are based on

Quote:
I am basing my opinion on the comments of U.S Air Force officers...People who actually "fought" with Pakistanis...I don't know if you know or not..but once in an exercise....Pakistani Air Force was able to break the formidable defences and was able to "hit" U.S aircraft carrier ... Also they just decimated 5 times larger Indian Air Force in previous wars ...
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Old 05-12-2012, 11:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knaur View Post
This was your main premise -



Not all of us have the advantage of making up facts as we please without citing what they are based on
O.K so you were talking about my OP. I was talking about my following post and "introduction" of another perspective in my post # 6 ...

Secondly , I can cite everything...but posting other forums aren't allowed? We had "ex-American" pilots , designated as "Professionals" in an F-16 forum ( you know what I am talking about) , they used to tell us difference stories of their experiences. They held Pakistani pilots in great regards...they did the same about Israelis and Greek pilots etc ... They were F-16 pilots ... Anyways.... my main point was something else...Pakistani presence increase threat to Israel...thats it.
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Old 05-12-2012, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Greenblood07 View Post
Secondly , I can cite everything...but posting other forums aren't allowed?
Re-read Odie's post then.

PAF has never "decimated" anything, and the overall record of Pakistan in past wars is rather dubious, except in the minds of Pakistanis themselves.

Quote:
We had "ex-American" pilots , designated as "Professionals" in an F-16 forum ( you know what I am talking about) , they used to tell us difference stories of their experiences. They held Pakistani pilots in great regards...they did the same about Israelis and Greek pilots etc ... They were F-16 pilots ...
Yes, I have talked to them on that forum and others as well. What they said and what you are projecting it to be are quite different.

Quote:
Anyways.... my main point was something else...Pakistani presence increase threat to Israel...thats it
And what does that say of Pakistan, when Israel itself has never threatened Pakistan in any way?
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