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  #1  
Old 11-16-2013, 10:27 AM
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http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine.../25169110.html

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By Robert Coalson
November 15, 2013

"Ukraine at the Rubicon." "Kyiv at a geopolitical crossroads." "The battle for Ukraine."

The headlines have been dire and the expectations high as the clock ticks down to the European Union's Eastern Partnership summit in Vilnius at the end of this month.

With less than two weeks to go, the main potential achievement of that summit -- the signing of an Association Agreement between Ukraine and the EU that has been more than five years in the works -- remains very much up in the air.

For months, the government of Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych seemed to be building momentum in its European-integration drive. It passed key reform legislation and indicated openness to releasing from prison former Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko, whom the EU views as a victim of selective justice.

But pressure from Moscow -- which wants Kyiv instead to join its customs union -- has grown as the proposed signing become increasingly imminent. Yanukovych has held at least three secretive meetings with Russian President Vladimir Putin in the last two weeks, and in their wake the Ukrainian leader's enthusiasm for Euro-integration seems to be waning.

"The EU has been right to say that there is at the moment no Plan B because momentum is all-important -- and if there isn't a signature in Vilnius, that momentum will clearly be lost," notes Andrew Wilson, a senior policy fellow at the European Council on Foreign Relations. "And 2014 will be a year of preparation for the [Ukrainian] presidential election in early 2015."

Former Polish President and EU envoy to Ukraine Aleksander Kwasniewski told journalists on November 14 that failure to sign on the dotted line in Vilnius could mean "the postponing of the agreement for an indefinite number of years."

Battle Royale For Ukraine

Analysts say Kyiv's decision is crucial for both Brussels and Moscow. The EU, worn down by enlargement fatigue and the effects of the global financial crisis, needs to show that it has the attraction and will to pursue its broad, post-Berlin Wall mission of "a Europe whole and free," Wilson says.

He adds that Ukraine is also essential to Putin's flagship project -- the Eurasian Union. "It is key to Putin and the key project of his term -- growing the customs union into the Eurasian Union," Wilson says. "It is also key to Putin and to Putin's friends -- the kind of private business interests that Russia wants to promote in Ukraine.

Without Ukraine, Putin's Eurasian Union would become a decidedly Asian project, and Ukraine's economy -- although much smaller than Russia's -- is the only one in the former Soviet Union capable of imbuing the Eurasian Union with a semblance of balance.

So Moscow will not relent in its efforts to prevent Ukraine from integrating with the European Union, even if Kyiv proceeds with the Association Agreement, says former Russian Deputy Prime Minister and opposition politician Boris Nemtsov.

"Signing a partnership agreement with Europe is a difficult decision that will be very painful for the Ukrainian economy during the first years. But sooner or later they will have to pass through these difficulties, and I think it is better to do it sooner rather than later," Nemtsov says.

"It is obvious that Putin will impose sanctions against Ukrainian goods. There will be trade wars, that is obvious. It is impossible to tell what will happen with natural gas," he adds. "No one says it will be easy. But overcoming these difficulties is unavoidable."

Putin Puts On The Pressure

Political scientist Andreas Umland of the Kyiv-Mohyla Academy wrote recently that, "Should Moscow use its considerable leverage to the full, the Ukrainian economy would be unable to withstand, and could go into a free-fall."

And Yanukovych is skeptical that European institutions have the will to prop things up.

Brussels' demands for Yanukovych to free rival Yulia Tymoshenko has thrown a wrench into Ukraine's EU drive.
Brussels' demands for Yanukovych to free rival Yulia Tymoshenko has thrown a wrench into Ukraine's EU drive.


The stealthy Putin-Yanukovych meetings recall a closed-door session the Kremlin leader had with Armenian President Serzh Sarkisian on September 3, after which Sarkisian surprisingly announced that his country would join the Customs Union of Belarus, Kazakhstan and Russia, despite being on the verge of initialing a long-negotiated Association Agreement in Vilnius.

Tellingly, Ukrainian Prime Minister Mykola Azarov said on November 13 that "the normalization of relations with Russia is question No. 1 of our national policy." He noted that a decrease in exports to Russia by more than one-quarter as a result of a Moscow-imposed customs slowdown had hit the country's economy hard.

Moreover, Ukraine's parliament has failed repeatedly -- most recently on November 13 -- to pass the legislation needed to release Tymoshenko, and Yanukovych has been unwilling to free his longtime political rival by executive fiat.

Pro-Russian forces in Ukraine are also mobilizing to sway public opinion. Former lawmaker Viktor Medvedchuk -- who has close personal ties to Putin -- has formed an organization called Ukrainian Choice that is posting billboards in Ukraine claiming that association with the EU will mean the legalization of same-sex marriage.

This is a salient issue in Ukraine. The same October poll found that 48 percent of Ukrainians oppose increased tolerance toward homosexuals and other sexual minorities.

European Push

But Moscow isn't the only formidable force turning up the pressure on Yanukovych. Many of Ukraine's powerful oligarchs fear being devoured by Kremlin-friendly business interests and are therefore pushing hard for Kyiv to move toward Europe.

"The Ukrainians -- if you take the situation to its logical conclusion -- could end up as hired managers of those enterprises that are competitive with Russian ones. This future, of course, does not satisfy the absolute majority of the Ukrainian elite that currently owns these enterprises. There aren't that many of them, but they are the drivers of the Ukrainian economy," explains Kirill Koktysh, a professor at the Moscow State Institute of International Relations (MGIMO).

"So, for this reason, naturally, they are seeking protection from the European Union from such a swallowing-up. It isn't a drive to make things better but essentially just to protect themselves from Russia."

The wrangling is being played out against the background of Ukraine's 2015 presidential election, which promises to be highly divisive.

Vitali Klitschko, leader of the opposition Udar party, told RFE/RL's Ukrainian Service that he was already gearing up for the vote. "There is a Plan B. Our next fight is the fight for the office of the president," he said. "And the president should implement the European rules of life."

Klitschko is urging Ukrainians to attend a November 24 rally in Kyiv that will be a multiparty show of support for Ukraine's pro-European course. "The flags could be Ukrainian; these flags could be European, because Ukraine is Europe," he said. "This is not a party meeting, not an action of a party or a certain political force. It is the wish of all Ukrainians, regardless of their political views, to live in a European country."

Public support for a pro-EU course is currently strong. According to a poll conducted in October, 45 percent of Ukrainians support the Association Agreement, while only 14 percent want to join the Russia-led customs union. Nearly half of the supporters of Yanukovych's ruling Party of Regions support the EU agreement, while opposition voters support it in even greater numbers.

And in addition to the celebrity that being the reigning world heavyweight boxing champion brings, a presidential bid by Klitschko -- or another pro-European candidate -- could also count on some influential financial backers.

Ukraine's leading oligarchs -- those who are spooked by the prospect of being muscled aside by Russian rivals -- seem poised to line up behind a pro-European candidate, if Yanukovych balks at signing the agreement.

"The entire oligarchy understands they have to play by rules. The time is coming when rules are needed because without rules, without institutional stability, without institutional transparency, the company loses its value," says Vadym Karasev, the director of the Global Strategies Institute in Kyiv.

"The value of the country will fall. As much as the oligarchy has invested in Ukraine, in its development -- buying soccer teams, creating media groups -- all that could collapse into dust."

RFE/RL's Ukrainian Service correspondents Olena Matusova, Inna Kuznetsova, and Vitaliy Yeremitsa contributed to this report from Kyiv. RFE/RL Russian Service correspondent Mikhail Sokolov contributed from Moscow
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Old 11-16-2013, 11:55 AM
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From an emotional standpoint, if I was a Ukrainian, I'd want to build a tall, thick wall on the Russian frontier and blot out the memory of Russian domination. Ironic, as Russia began in the Ukraine, and the Ukrainians and Russians were originally the same people.

The West is by far the best of two bad choices. In an imperfect world there are sometimes no good choices.
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Old 11-22-2013, 01:08 PM
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Default Ukraine ditches plans for EU deal, turns to Russia

http://en.ria.ru/russia/20131121/184...s-EU-Deal.html

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KIEV, November 21 (RIA Novosti) — Ukraine’s government decided Thursday to call off the planned signing of landmark agreements with the EU that could have weakened the former Soviet nation’s bonds with Russia.

The Cabinet said in a decree that the decision was motivated by the need to consolidate economic ties with Russia and members of the Kremlin-led Customs Union trade bloc.

The stunning reversal will be greeted with dismay in the European Union, which had been hoping to steer Kiev toward closer economic integration with Europe.

Earlier in the day, Ukraine’s parliament rejected draft laws aimed at allowing jailed opposition leader Yulia Tymoshenko to seek medical treatment abroad, which EU officials had stipulated as a condition for the agreements to go ahead.

Tymoshenko, who is an avowed political rival to President Viktor Yanukovych, is currently serving a seven-year jail sentence on corruption charges that she insists are politically motivated.

Association agreements and free trade deals with the EU were expected to be signed next week at a summit in Vilnius.

Instead, Ukraine’s government proposed Thursday the creation of a trilateral commission between itself, Russia and the European Union to explore ways to deepen mutual ties.

The decree also ordered the resumption of an “active dialogue” with the Moscow-led Customs Union, which includes Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan.
Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov welcomed Ukraine’s decision to build up cooperation with Russia.

“We clearly welcome the desire of our close partner Ukraine to optimize and develop trade and economic cooperation,” Peskov said.

Kiev’s volte-face is likely to be hailed as a foreign policy victory for Russian President Vladimir Putin, who has not hidden his distaste for Ukraine-EU integration.

Ukraine has come under sustained pressure from the Kremlin in recent months as diplomatic negotiations over its alignment with the EU intensified.

As well as the threatening the imposition of a strict new customs regime, Russia also ratcheted up pressure on Kiev, which depends on Russia for its energy supplies, over payments for gas imports.

Putin said Thursday that Russia would be willing to take part in a trilateral commission with the EU and Ukraine, as long as Ukraine halted its current European integration plans, Russian media reported.

There have been signs of growing nervousness among Ukraine’s leadership in recent days about the impact that the EU agreement could have on all-important economic relations with Russia.

Prime Minister Mykola Azarov acknowledged on Wednesday that his country had already registered significant losses because of shrinking trade volumes with Russia and other members of an alliance of former Soviet countries, the Commonwealth of Independent States.

“Trade turnover grew significantly in 2012, but in 2013 we have lost nearly one-quarter of our trade turnover with CIS markets,” Azarov said. “Those economic losses are significant for us, and Ukraine has been facing serious [financial] hardships lately.”

Azarov said that his government’s top priority for next year was to have Russian trade barriers removed and to bring the rapidly worsening state of trade with Russia back to normal.

“It’s no coincidence that when drafting the budget, the main economic figures for 2014 will depend on whether we are able to create mutual understanding with Russia,” he said.

Azarov made the remarks after meeting with Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev on the sidelines of a CIS prime ministers’ council in St. Petersburg.
President Yanukovych, who was in Austria on a state visit Thursday, said that his country remained open to integration with Europe, hinting that the issue could be revisited at a later stage.

“We have a little way left to the peak. We are not afraid of difficulties, we are certain that we should in future go along the path of European integration,” he said.

Asked about the likelihood of Tymoshenko's release, Yanukovych said that any decision on the former prime minister could only be taken in parliament.

“This matter has spilled out into society and into the international community,” he said. “The release of Tymoshenko should be resolved primarily within the framework of the law.”

Ukrainian deputy Prime Minister Yuriy Boiko said Thursday that the decision to reverse course on EU policy was in the national interest.

“The government based itself on exclusively national interests, the interests of protecting employment, increasing the economic stability of the government and boosting productive potential,” Boiko said.

Boiko added that Ukraine had given up hopes of receiving International Monetary Fund credits as Kiev was unwilling to comply with demands to hike prices for household utilities by 40 percent.

“The position of our president is that we cannot impose the conditions of this onerous contract, which was signed by the previous government, on the shoulders of our people. So there will be no increase in tariffs,” Boiko said.
Updates with comments from Kremlin spokesman, deputy Ukraine prime minister.
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Old 11-23-2013, 09:15 AM
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Default Ukraine PM Says His Country Not Seeking Entry to Customs Union

http://en.ria.ru/world/20131123/1848...oms-Union.html

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KIEV, November 23 (RIA Novosti) – Ukraine’s prime minister said late Friday that his country’s snap decision not to pursue closer economic ties with Europe did not mean it would instead seek entry into the Moscow-led Customs Union trade bloc.

Ukraine’s government stunned European officials this week by announcing that it was suspending preparations for EU association agreements that had been due to be concluded in a matter of days in favor of reviving the relationship with Russia.

The move has been widely read as a victorious outcome for the Kremlin and its efforts to keep its former Soviet neighbor within its economic orbit.
Claims that Moscow had strong-armed Kiev into backing away from the EU deal appeared to gain additional credence after an aide to Lithuania’s head of state said Friday that Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych had complained of Russia using trade embargoes as a form of pressure.

But Ukrainian Prime Minister Azarov dismissed those claims, saying the aide had liberally interpreted Yanukovych’s conversation with his Lithuanian counterpart.

“I don’t think that our president talked about [Russian blackmail]. I am 100 percent of that,” Azarov told Ukrainian television station Inter on Friday evening.

Azarov downplayed suggestions that mending long-strained links with Russia was a precursor to Ukraine entering the Customs Union, a fledgling economic bloc that currently also comprises Belarus and Kazakhstan.

“Since we decline to sign [the EU association agreement], it follows that we want to join the Customs Union. Who says?” Azarov said.

Russia has been openly lobbying for other economically struggling former Soviet nations, such as Armenia and Kyrgyzstan, to join the Customs Union, which some view as an exercise by Moscow at reasserting regional influence.
But Ukraine has in recent years played it cool over such initiatives, viewing them as an attempt to undermine its sovereignty.

In the near term, however, Ukraine must content with the realities of dependence on Russia. Azarov ruefully remarked earlier this week that his country had already registered significant losses because of shrinking trade with Russia and other members of the Moscow-led post-Soviet alliance, the Commonwealth of Independent States.

“Trade turnover grew significantly in 2012, but in 2013 we have lost nearly one-quarter of our trade turnover with CIS markets,” Azarov said. “Those economic losses are significant for us, and Ukraine has been facing serious [financial] hardships lately."

Even though Russian President Vladimir Putin as recently as Friday insisted that no pressure was being applied to Ukraine, Kremlin officials have openly threatened Ukraine in the past that an EU trade deal would preface trade embargoes.

Earlier this year, Russia cited hygiene concerns when it slapped an import ban on the products of a major Ukrainian major candy maker that provides work for thousands of people.

In October, Russia’s state-run energy giant Gazprom complained that Ukraine had not settled an $882 million unpaid natural gas bill for August and warned that it could in future begin demanding advance payment for the fuel.
That prompted Ukraine to announce it would stop buying Russian gas until the end of the year, which raised the specter of a possible halt of deliveries to Western Europe, only for Kiev to back down a few days later.

The issue of Russian-Ukrainian relations is further complicated by the internal politics of Ukraine, where the largely ethnic Russian population in the east favors retaining stronger links with Moscow. Those regions form Yanukovych’s political base.

Jailed opposition leader Yulia Tymoshenko, meanwhile, has frequently played on her nationalist appeal and passionately stated her ambition to see Ukraine heading westward.

Tymoshenko, who had two stints as prime minister under a previous president between 2005 and 2010, has become a central figure in the ongoing political and diplomatic drama.

In 2011, she was sentenced to seven years in jail on charges of abusing her office as prime minister for a contentious natural gas deal with Russia. She maintains the case against her is politically motivated.

Since May 2012, she has been receiving treatment for severe back problems that medical experts say will require her to seek hospitalization abroad.
Yanukovych has long resisted growing calls for her release, including those from the EU, which had said that satisfactory settlement of the Tymoshenko issue was an unavoidable precondition for the trade deal that Kiev seemed eager to conclude.

Yanukovych appeared to relent recently by suggesting that parliament could consider legislation allowing convicts to go abroad for treatment unavailable in Ukraine.

The draft legislation was duly drawn up, only for progress to be held up by bickering in Ukraine’s notoriously fractious parliament, where Yanukovych’s Party of Regions and its allies hold the majority.

The law appeared to definitively hit the buffers on Thursday, only hours before the Cabinet announced its withdrawal from the EU association agreement.
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Old 11-23-2013, 01:13 PM
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The Ruskies nearly slew ye
An' noo they're your darlings-dear
Ukraina I hardly knew ye
Queered from the divil's fear.

Variation on an old Scots verse

Last edited by David of Galilee; 11-23-2013 at 01:15 PM..
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Old 11-25-2013, 01:55 PM
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Default Scuffles with police as thousands of Ukrainians protest shelving of EU trade deal

http://rt.com/news/ukraine-protest-eu-deal-229/

Quote:
Tens of thousands of demonstrators took to the streets of several Ukrainian cities in protest at Kiev’s decision to suspend the EU trade agreement. A major rally for Euro integration with sporadic clashes is taking place in Kiev.



The latest outburst of violence took place after midnight when Kiev police tried to storm the tent camp in the capital’s central square. Protesters locked themselves in a chain preventing police from dismantling the camp. People were throwing rocks and balls of mud at the police and tearing off officers’ helmets, Ria reports.



Protesters set up a tent camp on November 24, 2013 on the Square of Europe after a protest in Kiev. (AFP Photo / Genya Savilov) Protesters set up a tent camp on November 24, 2013 on the Square of Europe after a protest in Kiev. (AFP Photo / Genya Savilov)

Earlier on Sunday, Ukrainian police had to use teargas after a group of protesters tried storming government buildings in Kiev. Flares and smoke pellets were thrown at the police officers, one of whom was injured by a hurled metal bar.



Protesters and riot police clash in front of the Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine during a rally in Kiev on November 24, 2013. (RIA Novosti / Alexei Furman)Protesters and riot police clash in front of the Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine during a rally in Kiev on November 24, 2013. (RIA Novosti / Alexei Furman)

Most of the other protesters demonstrated peacefully, forming a 22,000-strong crowd on Kiev’s Independence Square (Maidan Nezalezhnosti), according to police estimates. Ukrainian opposition stated more than 100,000 of people have gathered in the capital for protests.



Protesters and riot police clash in front of the Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine during a rally in Kiev on November 24, 2013. (AFP Photo / Genya Savilov)Protesters and riot police clash in front of the Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine during a rally in Kiev on November 24, 2013. (AFP Photo / Genya Savilov)

Protesters and riot police clash in front of the Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine during a rally in Kiev on November 24, 2013. (RIA Novosti / Alexei Furman)Protesters and riot police clash in front of the Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine during a rally in Kiev on November 24, 2013. (RIA Novosti / Alexei Furman)

The Ukrainian opposition on Sunday announced it was starting an “indefinite” protest action on the capital’s central square. Demanding that President Yanukovich sign a trade deal with the EU in Vilnius, the opposition accused the government of halting the integration of Ukraine into Europe.

Thousands marched through Kiev’s central streets with flags and pro-EU banners, as opposition leaders, including the ex-boxing champion Vitaly Klitschko, started giving speeches on what has been dubbed “Euromaidan.” A huge “line” of those willing to enter the square reportedly formed during the day.

The rally’s “resolution” was read out, in which the opposition also said the government must resign. Demands to free the former Ukrainian Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko and other “political prisoners” were also voiced.

Tymoshenko, who has been jailed on charges of abuse of power during gas negotiations with Russia’s Gazprom, sent a message to the protesters, urging them not to leave the square at least until November 28-29, when the Third Eastern Partnership Summit will be held Vilnius.



Meanwhile, the Ukrainian Prime Minister Nikolay Azarov said in an interview to local TV that Thursday’s decision was not a last-minute thought, but was based on strong concerns of Ukrainian economists, industrialists and businessmen who believe breaking economic ties with Russia would be extremely harmful for the country’s well-being.

Adapting local regulation to European standards would alone cost some 165 billion euro ($223.6 billion) in the next decade, Azarov said.



At the same time, the EU offered no promises of financial aid to Ukraine, with even the negotiated 1 billion euro starter aid being a “word-of-mouth promise,” the Ukrainian Prime Minister said.

Azarov later told ICTV that the EU does not consider a pause in trade deal talks as a “tragedy,” accusing the Ukrainian opposition of “trying to use every occasion to destabilize the socio-political situation” in the country. He said he does not rule out the deal could be signed in 2014.

The EU on Sunday said it remains just as determined to have the deal with Ukraine signed, with the EU’s Commissioner for Enlargement and Neighbourhood Policy, Stefan Fule, saying that “the door remains open and we don’t refuse the Ukrainian people realization of their Europe wish.”


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Old 11-25-2013, 01:59 PM
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Default Putin Accuses EU Of 'Blackmailing' Kyiv

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Russia's President Vladimir Putin has accused the European Union of "blackmail" and "pressure" against Ukraine over Kyiv's decision not to sign a key political association and free-trade agreement with the EU.

Putin made the comments on November 22 after talks with Turkey's prime minister in St. Petersburg.

"In fact, we have heard threats from our European partners against Ukraine -- up to the point of helping them stage mass protests. So, this is pressure. This is blackmail. And whether Ukraine and the Ukrainian leadership bow to this blackmail will be clear in the coming days," Putin said.

Earlier in the day in Kyiv, Ukrainian Prime Minister Mykola Azarov told parliament that the decision not to sign the agreement at an EU summit in Vilnius next week was motivated by economic concerns and was "the only possible" option.

"The decision to suspend the preparations for the signing of an Association Agreement and a free trade zone with the EU was difficult. But it was the only possible way in the economic situation, which Ukraine is in," Azarov said.

The Ukrainian opposition denounced the decision as state treason, and accused President Viktor Yanukovych of selling out to Russia.

Call For Protests

Jailed former Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko called on people to go out to the streets to protest against the decision. Her lawyer, Serhiy Vlasenko, read out a letter from the former prime minister in which she compared the government turnabout to a coup.

The EU has been trying to secure Tymoshenko's release ahead of the signing of the Association Agreement with Kyiv.

Earlier on November 22, about 1,000 protesters gathered in downtown Kyiv, and smaller demonstrations were held in other cities as well.

The opposition has called for a further mass demonstration in Kyiv on November 24.

The EU has voiced disappointment with Ukraine's decision but remains committed to the people of Ukraine.

Maja Kocijancic, the spokeswoman for EU foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton, said that Ukraine wasn't a prize to be won.

"It was a relationship that we started to build a long time ago. It's a partnership between the European Union and Ukraine," Kocijancic said.

"We respect the decision of Ukraine but we have outlined a very good case in this partnership and, as I said, we continue to believe that Ukraine's future lies in a strong relationship with the European Union. And we were working exactly in that direction."

Lithuania, which currently holds the bloc's rotating presidency, on November 22 turned down a proposed trilateral trade dialogue between Ukraine, Russia, and the EU.

EU officials had hoped to sign the Association Agreement with Kyiv at the EU's Eastern Partnership summit on November 28-29 in the Lithuanian capital.

With reporting by RFE/RL's Rikard Jozwiak in Brussels, Reuters, AFP, and Interfax
http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine.../25176146.html
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Old 11-25-2013, 02:01 PM
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Default Ukrainian PM: Ukraine Could Sign EU Accord In 2014

http://en.apa.az/xeber_ukrainian_pm_...co_203180.html

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Baku – APA. Ukrainian Prime Minister Mykola Azarov says Ukraine might sign an Association Agreement with the European Union at an EU-Ukraine summit early next year, APA reports quoting Radio Free Europe.

Azarov said during a televised interview on November 24 that "the EU fully understands our economic situation" and that no one in Brussels has ruled out signing the agreement. Last week, Kyiv announced it was suspending preparations to sign the long-negotiated agreement at an EU Eastern Partnership summit in Vilnius on November 28-29. On November 22, EU Enlargement Commissioner Stefan Fuele said Kyiv could sign the agreement next year. Azarov said the government was forced to postpone signing the agreement because it was unable to negotiate compensation for harm to Ukraine's economy that would stem from "defensive measures" threatened by the Russia-led Customs Union.

"The question became: either we pause now and resolve the question of compensation, resolve the question of saving jobs, resolve the question of wages -- or we sign the [EU association] agreement and, without any compensation at all, and take head on all of the defensive sanctions of the Customs Union," Azarov said. "We could not take on such a responsibility, so we decided to put the question on hold." Azarov also said opposition politicians are sensationalizing the government's decision as "a tragedy" in order to "destabilize the social and political situation."
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Old 11-26-2013, 12:10 PM
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Default Is New Orange Revolution Brewing In Ukraine?

http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine.../25179851.html

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By Claire Bigg
November 25, 2013

Ukraine is still reeling from the massive demonstrations that gripped its capital on November 24 to protest the government's decision to walk away from a key trade pact with the European Union.

The rallies in central Kyiv stretched into November 25, with an estimated 1,000 people responding to opposition calls to remain on the streets over the government's abrupt policy shift toward Moscow, which had threatened retaliation if Ukraine signed the EU deal.

Protest organizers pledged to stage daily demonstrations throughout the week.

The protests on November 24, which drew tens of thousands of people, some of them camped out in tents, evoked memories of the peaceful Orange Revolution that ushered in a pro-Western government nine years ago.

Led by Viktor Yushchenko and Yulia Tymoshenko, the 2004 protests overturned the results of a presidential election, won by Viktor Yanukovych, the current president, but widely viewed as rigged. The protests forced a revote that was won by Yushchenko, who served as president until 2010. Yanukovych won the country's 2010 presidential election.

A repeat of the Orange Revolution, however, appears unlikely, analysts say. "An Orange Revolution is impossible now. There are no politicians for whose sake people would be ready to take to the streets for days and weeks," Ukrainian journalist Natalya Lihachova says.

"The old leaders cannot take Ukraine forward. Apart from Vitali Klitschko and Yulia Tymoshenko, who is in jail and I'm afraid will be not be able to take part in the political battle for a long time, there are very few decent political leaders in Ukraine," she adds.

'Not Like 2004'

Unlike the Orange Revolution, the current protests are divided into two separate rallies -- one by young nonpartisan civic activists inspired by the Occupy movement; the second, concentrated on another Kyiv square, by political parties. The division is not obvious from televised footage.

The participation of political parties, which were quick to unfurl their banners on November 24, has deterred many Ukrainians from joining the protests.

Mykola Tomenko, the head of the Verkhovna Rada's committee on freedom of speech and a leader of the Orange Revolution, recalls how Ukrainians from across the nation joined forces nine years ago to oust Yanukovych following the allegedly rigged election.

Today's rallies, he says, hardly reflect the general mood in Ukraine. "The protests can continue as a protest by political forces, by the opposition, but not as a protest by society -- at any rate, not a large part of society," he says. "The big difference with the current situation is the narrower scope of the protest, the lower level of participation of regions and social groups."
The participation of political parties, which were quick to unfurl their banners on November 24, has deterred many Ukrainians from joining the protests.
The participation of political parties, which were quick to unfurl their banners on November 24, has deterred many Ukrainians from joining the protests.

Opinion polls show a plurality of Ukrainians supporting EU integration, albeit by small margins.

After years of political turmoil since the Orange Revolution, fewer than in 2004 appear ready for radical political change.

Since the announcement of his policy U-turn last week, Yanukovych has remained tight-lipped both about the protests and whether he intends to attend the Third Eastern Partnership Summit in Vilnius on November 28-29, at which he was expected to sign the EU pact before changing course.

Prime Minister Mykola Azarov, however, made it clear that his government would not tolerate a second Orange Revolution. "We know that such events are financed, for example. If this is carried out within a legal framework, fine," he told Russian television on November 24.

"If all this is carried out in violation of the law, then, of course, the government will not act like it did in 2004, when the technology of overthrowing the lawful government was being worked out quite simply before our very eyes. In this case, we won't fool around."

Inna Kuznetsova of RFE/RL's Ukrainian Service and Andrei Shary of RFE/RL's Russian Service contributed to this report
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Old 11-26-2013, 07:09 PM
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EAST OR WEST?

You mean the false anti American, anti Israeli European Union with failing EURO states vs a Sly, controlling Russia who still thinks its cold war era days arent over.

Horrible choice, but what I know is in WWII the Ukrainians were no friends of Jews and they werent even loyal to the USSR, many of these want to join the western forces under Germany and France called the EU, if I were a LOYAL SLAVIC person I would stick to Russia.

All the EU should break up their fake game and stop trying to compete with America, they will NEVER HAVE IT at this rate.
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Old 11-27-2013, 06:41 AM
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Russia has never shown loyalty to Ukraine, even though both Russians and Ukrainians have the same origin as a single eastern Slavic peoples in the Ukraine.

As far as being anti-Semitic, naturally the Ukraine has a prominent history. Jews were not allowed to live in Russia for the most part. Stalin, although not a Russian, ordered collectivization of the Ukraine, and millions died amidst some fo the richest farmland in the world. Stalin was crude and cruel in murdering Ukranians by the tens of thousands, unto millions. Even as a Jew, I understand why the Ukrainians greeted the Nazi anschluss with flowers. They though they were going to be liberated from Soviet Russia. I don't agree with it, but I do understand.

Of course, understanding the multiple evil national characteristics and agendas does not make any one of them better than the other. But Ukrainian pro-German sentiments were actually anti-Russian.

As for Russia, she was every bit as anti-Semitic and violent toward the Jews as the Ukrainians. Jews never found anything to chose between Hitler or Stalin, Ukrainians or Russians, Poles or Lithuanians.

From a rabbi who lived through both Naziism and Stalinism:

? להשמיד את היהודים במבטא רוסי או במבטא גרמני, מה ההבדל
To be slaughtered by someone with a Russian accent, or German, what is the difference?
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Default Pro-EU Protests In Ukraine Enter Third Day

Yanukovych Says Kyiv Will Wait For Better EU Deal


http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine.../25180413.html
Quote:
By RFE/RL
Last updated (GMT/UTC): 26.11.2013 11:20

Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych said financial terms offered by the European Union to convince him to close a key political and trade deal with the bloc had been humiliating and that he would wait for improved conditions before agreeing on anything.

Yanukovych made the statement in a televised interview as thousands of pro-EU Ukrainians continued to stage mass demonstrations in Kyiv and other Ukrainian cities urging the government to sign an Association Agreement with the EU.

Yanukovych said the EU for the past three years had demanded Ukraine sign a loan agreement with the International Monetary Fund in exchange for EU technical assistance worth 610 million euros. Yanukovych said the IMF told Ukraine it would have to raise taxes for the population and freeze salaries and pensions.

Yanukovych said, "We don't have to be humiliated like this. We are a serious, European country." He added, "As soon as we agree on normal conditions, then we will talk about signing."

Yanukovych's statement came shortly after Russian President Vladimir Putin said Moscow was concerned about the impact on Russia's economy of closer ties between Ukraine and the EU, urging Brussels to refrain from "harsh" remarks.

"I would kindly ask our friends in Brussels -- my personal friends, good ones in the European Commission -- to refrain from harsh statements," Putin said. "Should we kill entire branches of our economy to be loved by them? We do not want any outbreaks of joblessness and shutdown of entire branches of the Russian economy."

Putin said Ukraine, the EU, and Russia should meet and discuss a way forward after Kyiv suspended moves to sign an Association Agreement with the EU at a summit later this week.

Brussels had earlier accused Moscow of pressuring Ukraine out of the deal.

But Putin denied Russia had strong-armed Ukraine into putting off the signing of the agreement and said, "The choice of whom to sign a free trade agreement with is Ukraine's sovereign choice and we will respect the decision, whatever it is."

Meantime, several thousand students joined protesters in Kyiv on November 26 to demand that Ukraine's government sign the EU agreement. It was the third day of large protests in the capital.

On November 26, leaders of the three main opposition groups, the Batkivshchyna party, the UDAR party, and the Svoboda union -- Arseniy Yatsenyuk, Vitaly Klitschko, and Oleh Tyahnybok -- circulated an appeal for unity among their supporters.

The appeal said, "We are different, but we are united by one demand: President Viktor Yanukovych must sign the association agreement at the Eastern Partnership summit in Vilnius."

On November 25, jailed former Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko launched a hunger strike in solidarity with the pro-EU protests.

The EU, which considers Tymoshenko's conviction for abuse of office as politically motivated and an example of selective justice, had made allowing Tymoshenko to get medical treatment abroad one of the key conditions for signing the deal with Kyiv, but the Ukrainian parliament failed to pass the necessary laws.

Based on reporting by AFP, Reuters, ITAR-TASS, and Interfax
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Old 11-27-2013, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David of Galilee View Post
Russia has never shown loyalty to Ukraine, even though both Russians and Ukrainians have the same origin as a single eastern Slavic peoples in the Ukraine.

As far as being anti-Semitic, naturally the Ukraine has a prominent history. Jews were not allowed to live in Russia for the most part. Stalin, although not a Russian, ordered collectivization of the Ukraine, and millions died amidst some fo the richest farmland in the world. Stalin was crude and cruel in murdering Ukranians by the tens of thousands, unto millions. Even as a Jew, I understand why the Ukrainians greeted the Nazi anschluss with flowers. They though they were going to be liberated from Soviet Russia. I don't agree with it, but I do understand.

Of course, understanding the multiple evil national characteristics and agendas does not make any one of them better than the other. But Ukrainian pro-German sentiments were actually anti-Russian.

As for Russia, she was every bit as anti-Semitic and violent toward the Jews as the Ukrainians. Jews never found anything to chose between Hitler or Stalin, Ukrainians or Russians, Poles or Lithuanians.

From a rabbi who lived through both Naziism and Stalinism:

? להשמיד את היהודים במבטא רוסי או במבטא גרמני, מה ההבדל
To be slaughtered by someone with a Russian accent, or German, what is the difference?
In short, USSR, Ukraine, Germans ALL OF THEM anti Jew, it just happens to be the case that no matter how bad Stalin was he didnt gas millions of Jews. In many eras several Christian nations treated Jews as animals for slaughter.

Ukrainians were so happy to oblige during WWII, yes Russia was also persecuting, but not all over Russia, that is why so many Jews were able to live there and later come to Israel after Independence.

Ukrainians want economic relief by joining the EU I understand this, they want to break lose with "big brother" Russia I also understand this, but I also cannot see any good joining the Franco-Germananic empire we call the EU, its a failed Union already.

I dont know all the history of USSR and Ukraine, so you might be very right about Russias attitude towards Ukraine, but I wouldnt be surprised if I were to learn the other way was also happening.
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Old 11-27-2013, 04:49 PM
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By the way who was the Rabbi who said this, I'd like to get some good reading on the history of the Jews in Russia, reason I am asking: To be slaughtered by someone with a Russian accent, or German, what is the difference?


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Old 11-27-2013, 05:56 PM
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Most Jews who immigrated to Israel from the former USSR were not from Russia, but mostly Ukraine, and other captive nations of what was called the Pale of Settlement.

The Georgian Beast was setting up concentration camps for the Children of Israel when Beria and Molotov and Khruschev let him die unaided after his last massive stroke. Read about the Jewish DoctorsPlot. The Soviet Union swept it under the rug, but thousands of Jews knew exactly what was just begining.

Stalin did manage to shoot quite a few thousands Jews, but fortunately the big plans, on a Hitlerian scale, never came about.

We all casually refer to Russian Jews, but this usually means Jews of the Russian Empire, or of the Soviet Union, but rarely the actual Russian land. I have lots of family from various captive nations, and none of them even spoke Russian, or ever visited Russia itself. During our last census, in the place for country of origin for non-Sabra Israelis, Russia wasn't even on the list of countries--Ukraine was first, and Russia was assumed under "Other".

There have been Slavs with whom Jews have had a better history. Czechs, and Serbians. Though Serbians were off and on about tolerating us, they were far better than most Slavs. We supplied arms to them in the 19th century to help fight the Ottomons. Ironically, the Cro'ats, though culturally close to the Serbs, were famously anti-Semitic and turned Jews over to the Nazis. We were fellow partisans with the Serbs in the mountains and forests of the Balkans during the war.

The Czechs supplied Israel with critical arms, aircraft, and other supplies in 1948, '49, and helped us brake the British-American embargo and Royal Navy blocdade.

The Russians were absolute trash to us compared to the Serbs and Czechs. My eight Uncles from the Soviet-Polish border area used to spit over their left shoulders every time they said Russia. Russians, Ukrainians, Cossacks, Prussians, Poles, Lithuanians, Hungarians, Slavic, Germanic, Magyar--all have a less than hallowed place in many Jewish families.

Russia, though, actually orchestrated pogroms on a schedule, with predetermined quotas of Jewish deaths. The Russian imperial government also created the infamous Protocols of the Elders of Zion, made famous in America by Henry Ford, who endoresed it and published it. Ironically, he was also given a personal medal of honour from the Hitler government, in a ceremony which he attended. But that's another story...

I can get a bibliography together. I have to check some of the books I know of to see about English editions. I know some of the classic are definately in English, and will be in American university libraries. Many of the works are not, however, in English, because there is no popular market for such books, and scholars of the field read the various languages. Bear in mind that the use of the word "Russia" usually, but not always, means Russian Empire, or Soviet Union. It may or may not mean Russia itself, but nations captive under Russian authority or Soviet authority.

  1. Baron, Salo W. The Russian Jew under tsars and Soviets (New York: Macmillan; London: Collier Macmillan, 1976)
  2. Beizer, Mikhail. The Jews of St. Petersburg: excursions through a noble past, translated by Michael Sherbourne, edited with an introduction and maps by Martin Gilbert (Philadelphia, Pa.: Jewish Publication Society, 1989)
  3. Brym, Robert J. The Jews of Moscow, Kiev and Minsk: identity, antisemitism, emigration, with the assistance of Rozalina Ryvkina, editor Howard Spier (Basingstoke: Macmillan, in association with the Institute of Jewish Affairs, 1994)
  4. Dokumenty po istorii i kul'ture evreev v arkhivakh Moskvy: putevoditel', nauchnye redaktory-sostaviteli: M.S. Kupovetskii, E.V. Starostin, Marek Veb (Moskva: Rossiiskii gos. gumanitarnyi universitet, 1997)
  5. Dostoevskii, F. M. Evreiskii vopros, [redaktor V.I. Korchagin] (Moskva: Izdatel'stvo "Vitiaz'", 1995)
  6. Dubnov, Semen Markovich. History of the Jews in Russia and Poland ... Translated from the Russian by I. Friedlaender, 3 vol. (Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society of America, 1916-20)
  7. Dudakov, S. Paradoksy i prichudy filosemitizma i antisemitizma v Rossii: ocherki (Moskva: Rossiiskii gosudarstvennyi gumanitarnyi universitet, 2000)
  8. Evrei v kul'ture russkogo zarubezh'ia: sbornik statei, publikatsii, memuarov i esse, sostavitel' Mikhail Parkhomovskii (Ierusalim: [b.i.], 1992-)
  9. Evreiskaia emigratsiia v svete novykh dokumentov / pod redaktsiei B. Morozova (Tel Aviv: Ivrus, 1998)
  10. Fishman, David E. Russia's first modern Jews: the Jews of Shklov (New York, London: New York University Press, 1995)
  11. Friedlaender, Israel. The Jews of Russia and Poland: a bird's-eye view of their history and culture. With a map (New York; London: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1915) [04034.eee.68.]
  12. Gessen, IUlii. Istoriia evreiskogo naroda v Rossii (Moskva; Ierusalim: Evreiskii Universitet v Moskve, 1993)
  13. Gorskie evrei: istoriia, etnografiia, kul'tura, sostavlenie i nauchnaia redaktsiia V. Dym****sa; perevod s ivrita IU. Muradova; vstupitel'naia stat'ia M. Chlenova; pod obshchei redaktsiei I. Beguna (Ierusalim; Moskva: DAAT; Znanie, 1999)
  14. Greenberg, Louis Stanley. The Jews in Russia (Vol. 2 edited by Mark Wischnitzer) [A reissue, in one volume; with a new foreword by Alfred Levin] 2 vol. (New Haven; London: Yale University Press, 1965) [Ac.2692.md/3.]
  15. Greenberg, Louis. The Jews in Russia: the struggle for emancipation (New York: Schocken, 1976) [X.709/30770]
  16. Hundert, Gershon David. The Jews in Poland and Russia: bibliographical essays (Bloomington: Indiana University Press, 1984)
  17. Istoriia evreev v Rossii: problemy istochnikovedeniia v istoriografii: sbornik nauchnykh trudov, otvetstvennyi redaktor: D.A. El'iashevich (Sankt-Peterburg: Peterburgskii evreiskii universitet, Institut issledovanii evreiskoi diaspory, 1993)
  18. Jews and Jewish life in Russia and the Soviet Union, edited by Yaacov Ro'i (Cass, 1995)
  19. Judge, Edward H. Easter in Kishinev: anatomy of a pogrom (New York; London: New York University Press, 1992)
  20. Pogroms: anti-Jewish violence in Russian history, edited by John D. Klier and Shlomo Lambroza (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1992)
  21. Selianinov, Aleksandr. Evrei v Rossii (Moskva: "Vitiaz'", 1995)
  22. Shul'gin V. V. "Chto nam v nikh ne nravitsia--": ob antisemitizme v Rossii (Moskva: "Russkaia kniga", 1994)
  23. Slavic Judiaca Pamphlets, checklist no. 10; series: Judaica serials and ephemera microfilmed under the Strengthening Research Library Resources Program (Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard University Library, 1981)
  24. Soblazn sotsializma: revoliutsiia v Rossii i evrei. Series: Issledovaniia noveishei russkoi istorii, no.12. General editor: A.I. Solzhenitsyn (Paris, Moscow: YMCA-Press, Russkii put', 1995)
  25. Soviet Jews: fact and fiction (Moscow: Novosti Press Agency, [1971?])
  26. Stanislawski, Michael. For whom do I toil? Judah Leib Gordon and the crisis of Russian Jewry (New York, Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1988)
  27. Vasil'ev, A. Obzor dokumental'nykh istochnikov po istorii evreev v fondakh RGVIA [sostavitel' A. Vasil'ev] (Moskva: Ob-vo "Evreiskoe nasledie", 1994)
  28. Zhabotinskii, Vladimir. Evreiskoe vospitanie (Odessa: Knigoizdatel'stvo KadimaTip. Torg. Doma G. M. Levinson, 1905)

    Eighteenth & nineteenth centuries
  29. Evrei v Rossiiskoi Imperii XVIII-XIX vekov: sbornik trudov evreiskikh istorikov [sostavitel', avtor vstupitel'noi stat'i i annotatsii, A. Lokshin (Moskva, Ierusalim: [Evreiskii universitet, Gesharim Press], 1995)
  30. Klier, John D. Russia gathers her Jews: the origins of the "Jewish question" in Russia, 1772-1825 (DeKalb, Ill.: Northern Illinois University Press, 1986)
  31. Lederhendler, Eli. The road to modern Jewish politics: political tradition and political reconstruction in the Jewish community of tsarist Russia (New York, Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1989)
  32. Lowe, Heinz-Dietrich. The tsars and the Jews: reform, reaction, and anti-semitism in imperial Russia, 1772-1917 (Reading: Harwood Academic Publishers, 1993)
  33. Rogger, Hans. Jewish policies and right-wing politics in Imperial Russia (London: Macmillan, in association with St. Anthony's College, Oxford, 1986)
  34. Sistematicheskii ukazatel' literatury o evreiakh na russkom iazyke so vremeni vvedeniia grazhdanskago shrifta (1708 g.) po dekabr' 1889 g. (Cambridge: Oriental Research Partners, 1973)

    Nineteenth century
  35. Aronson, I. Michael. Troubled waters: the origins of the 1881 anti-Jewish pogroms in Russia (Pittsburgh, Pa.: University of Pittsburgh Press, 1990)
  36. Byt' evreem v Rossii: materialy po istorii russkogo evreistva, 1880-1890-e gody, sostavlenie, zakliuchitel'naia stat'ia i kommentarii Nelli Portnovoi
  37. Evrei v Rossii: XIX vek, vstup. stat'ia V. Kel'nera (Moskva: Novoe literaturnoe obozrenie, 2000) [YA.2000.a.29212]
  38. [b]Henderson, Ebenezer D.D. Biblical researches and travels in Russia, including a tour in the Crimea; and the passage of the Caucasus: with observations on the state of the Rabbinical and Karaite Jews, and the Mohammedan and Pagan tribes, inhabiting the southern provinces of the Russian Empire (London, 1826).
  39. Levertov, Beatrice. Dreamers of Zion: sketches from Jewish life in pre-revolutionary Russia (London: S.P.C.K., [1931])
  40. Peled, Yoav. Class and ethnicity in the pale: the political economy of Jewish workers: nationalism in late Imperial Russia (London: Macmillan, 1989)

  41. The persecution of the Jews in Russia, with a map of Russia; showing the pale of Jewish settlement, issued by the Russo-Jewish Committee of London (Reprinted) (Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society of America, 1897).
  42. Russkie liudi o evreiakh [A collection of extracts from offical and unofficial sources relating to Jews in Russia], compiled by S.I. Rapoport (Sankt Peterburg, 1891) [The only known copy in existence]
  43. Sbornik materialov ob ekonomicheskom polozhenii evreev v Rossii. 2 vols. (S. Peterburg, 1904)

    Nineteenth & twentieth centuries
  44. Deich, G. M. Arkhivnye dokumenty po istorii evreev v Rossii v XIX- nachale XX vv.: a research guide to materials on the history of Russian Jewry, 19th and early 20th centuries, in selected archives of the former Soviet Union (Moskva: Izdatel'stvo "Blagovest", [1994?])
  45. Gitelman, Zvi Y. A century of ambivalence: the Jews of Russia and the Soviet Union, 1881 to the present (London: Viking, 1988)
  46. Kniga o russkom evreistve: ot 1860-kh godov do revoliutsii 1917 g. (New York: Soiuz russkikh evreev, 1960)
  47. Levitats, Isaac. The Jewish Community in Russia, 1844-1917 (Jerusalem: Posner, [1981])
  48. Pudalov, Boris Moiseevich. Evrei v Nizhnem Novgorode (XIX-nachalo XX veka) (Nizhnii Novgorod: Nizhegorodskii gumanitarnyi tsentr, 1998)
  49. Taina Izrailia: "evreiskii vopros" v russkoi religioznoi mysli kontsa XIX-pervoi poloviny XX vv. [sostavlenie, primechaniia Boikova V.F.] (Sankt-Peterburg: "Sofiia", 1993)
  50. Wolf, Lucien. The legal sufferings of the Jews in Russia: a survey of their present situation and a summary of laws, edited by L. Wolf, with an introduction by Professor A. V. Dicey (London: T. Fisher Unwin, 1912)
  51. Twentieth century
  52. Dennen, Leon. Where the Ghetto ends: Jews in Soviet Russia (New York: Alfred H. King, [1934])
  53. Evrei i russkaia revoliutsiia: materialy i issledovaniia, edited and compiled by O.V. Budnitskii (Moskva; Ierusalim: Gerashim, 1999)
  54. Gassenschmidt, Christoph. Jewish liberal politics in tsarist Russia, 1900-14: the modernization of Russian Jewry (Basingstoke: Macmillan, in association with St Antony's College, Oxford, 1995)
  55. Honig, Samuel. From Poland to Russia and back, 1939-1946: surviving the Holocaust in the Soviet Union (Windsor, Ont.: Black Moss Press, 1996)
  56. Jews in Eastern Poland and the USSR, 1939-46, edited by Norman Davies and Antony Polonsky (Basingstoke: Macmillan, in association with the School of Slavonic and East European Studies, University of London, 1991)
  57. Kagan, Mikaella. Evreiskaia emigratsiia iz byvshego SSSR v SShA: obzor izmenenii za 70-90-e gody (Moskva: Institut etnologii i antropologii RAN, 1996)
  58. Kochan, Lionel. The Jews in Soviet Russia since 1917, edited by Lionel Kochan. 2nd ed. (London: Oxford University Press, for the Institute of Jewish Affairs, 1972)
  59. Kostyrchenko G. Out of the red shadows: anti-semitism in Stalin's Russia (Amherst, N.Y.: Prometheus Books, 1995)
  60. Kuts, Vladimir. Poedinok s sud'boi, izd. 2, dop. (Moskva: RIO Uprpoligrafizdata Administratsii Moskovkoi oblasti, 1999)
  61. Lustiger, Arno. Rotbuch: Stalin und die Juden: die tragische Geschichte des Jüdischen Antifaschistischen Komitees und der sowjetischen Juden (Berlin: Aufbau Taschenbuch, 2000, c1998)
  62. Nitoburg, Eduard Lvovich. Evrei v Amerike na iskhode XX veka (Moskva: Choro, 1996)
  63. [b]Pinkus, Benjamin. The Jews of the Soviet Union: the history of a national minority (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1988)
  64. The Russian Jews in the War (Jewish Fund for Soviet Russia: London, [1944])
  65. Quigley, John. Flight into the maelstrom: Soviet immigration to Israel and Middle East peace (Reading: Ithaca, 1997)
  66. Sawyer, Thomas E. The Jewish minority in the Soviet Union (Boulder: Westview Press; Folkestone: Dawson, 1979)
  67. Shindler, Colin. Exit visa: detente, human rights and the Jewish emigration movement in the USSR (London: Bachman and Turner, 1978)
  68. Weinberg, Robert. Stalin's forgotten Zion: Birobidzhan and the making of a Soviet Jewish homeland: an illustrated history, 1928-1996 (Berkeley, Calif.; London: University of California Press, 1998)

    Journals and periodicals
  69. Ivask, U. G. Evreiskaia periodicheskaia pechat' v Rossii ([Israel]: [b.i.], [1987])
  70. [b]Jews and Slavs, edited by Wolf Moskovitch, Shmuel Schvarzband, Anatoly Alekseev (Jerusalem: Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Center for Slavic languages and literatures, 1993-)
  71. The journal of the academic proceedings of Soviet Jewry, Vol.1, no.1- (London: Henry Stewart Publications, 1986-)
  72. Judaica Rossica, vyp.1- (Moskva: Rossiiskii gosudarstvennyi gumanitarnyi universitet, TSentr bibleistiki i iudaistiki, 2001-)
  73. Orbach, Alexander. New voices of Russian Jewry: a study of the Russian-Jewish press of Odessa in the era of the great reforms 1860-1871 (Leiden: Brill, 1980)
  74. Vestnik Evreiskogo universiteta v Moskve, No. 1 (1992)- (Moskva; Ierusalim: Jewish University in Moscow, 1992-)

Last edited by David of Galilee; 11-27-2013 at 06:03 PM..
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Old 11-27-2013, 06:37 PM
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Awesome thanks for this David! Really would like to know the Rabbi who is quoted in your post!

Like I said many Christian nations have been involved in massacring Jews. As you pointed out the USSR was no Jew friendly, just as I pointed out despite the facts that Ukraine was being mistreated by the USSR I have to disagree that joining forces with Nazis was a understandable, you see this is the exact same thing happening today.

Russia today is not the best friend of Israel as they help Iran often, but the EU is also in a more seemingly "civilized" way pushing for Israel to be divided and East Jerusalem as the capital of a future "palestine" Just as the Austro Hungarian empire along with Germans brought about Nazism and the Croatians you speak about is a result of that. The Vaticans goons and many leaders of the very SAME nations France included are still persecuting Serbs, as well as playing their game with Israel.

The French like Germans are feeling guilty over events in WWII so they dont dare attack Israel, they make that very clear, youve seen in recent days the difference between Hollande and Chirac atleast, but they are still in a very nice voice asking Israel to divide itself and East Jerusalem (where the Temple Mount is) to be handed over to the arabs.

The SAME mentality is there as it was during the Nazis days, its just unable to do more as they know there are nations like the United States that will come in the way of the EU pushes too hard, yet sadly the US is also chiming in the East Jerusalem to the arabs singing.

The Russians even before USSR at the time of the Tsar already started the anti semitic behavior this I know, anti Jewish literature were read IN CHURCH under the ORDER OF THE Tsar of Russia!

So at the end of the day, what has really changed? Once again I say east or west both are bad choices for anyone, I would prefer going for independence from BOTH!

So many European nations have learnt the hard way with this Union idiocy. Look at the dumb Scottish nationalists, they want independence from the United Kingdom, just to discuss joining the European Union, of which they have less in common with, and will only open Scotland to anything from terrorists to illegal immigrants who will find their way to England. Yes the English and Scots have a long history and a good part of it was the English forcing the Scots to be part of the UK, but its dumb to leave one Union to join another that I for one am not fond of and that force EU laws over National ones, just as the United Nations has been trying over western nations MORE than they try on 3rd world or Asian nations.

If you want independence, get it, dont join Unions.
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  #17  
Old 11-27-2013, 07:19 PM
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I have so many old Hebrew quotes in my head, but I will make a concerted effort to locate sources. I am almost certian that something similar has been said by a number of people. I'm looking . . .
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Old 11-27-2013, 08:01 PM
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Regarding the pro-Nazi Ukrainian sentiments in WWII (at least initially):

I differentiate, in classic Talmudic style, between understanding something, on the one hand, and agreeing or liking or approving of something, on the other hand. The Ukrainian reaction was a classic case of responding to one evil with another. By saying I understand why they did it, I mean that I see the historical pathway they took, the series of actions and reactions that resulted in strewing flowers in the path of the Panzers. All of which they came to regret, as the Germans barely cared about the identity issue between Ukrainians and Russians, and ultimately mistreated all Slavs equally. Slavs were the worst of all "white" men for these so-called German Aryans. Never mind all the mixing of German and Slavic blood in central and eastern Europe.

Scotland:

The Great Lairds of Scotland, and the corrupt Scottish parliament, sold out independent Scotland for commercial union, English titles, and bags of gold. To be fair to the English, they had no plans to force the issue, as Scotland was, in fact, very dependent on English gold already, and already in a Union of Crowns. In fact, they had a century when Scottish Stuarts reigned over both independent kingdoms, and the nobility of Scotland by and large chose to look south. Whereas, the Scots people were happy with their own beautiful and not so poorly kingdom. They have also had a disproportionate amount of power out of the United Kingdom and the British Empire. In fact, the Scots absolutely thrived as imperialists all over the world. Many royal governors in the American colonies were Scots. A Scots admiral burned down Washington in the War of 1812. The Opium Wars were started by the Scots of the firm Jardine Matheson, who forced opium on the Chinese--not the English who are usually blamed. I shed few tears for Scottish claims of abuse. They have had a number of Prime Ministers, senior government officials, general and admirals, diplomats, etc. who were just fine with having authority over the English and the Welsh and the Irish. And the English believed in the unity of all British nations, and never cared if a Scot like Tony Blair rule the UK, or Gordon Brown after him. Even Cameron, although English born, is of Scots ancestry. Scotland could be a prosperous independent nation, but, to jump from being outnumbered by ratio of 1:10 in the United Kingdom, to 1:100 in the EU is suicide for independence. The EU is France and Germany, first, Italy, Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark second, Spain, Portugal, Greece, then a few bits and pieces last. Scotland will have influence behind small but entrenched Luxembourg.

They have a real, powerful parliament, Holyrood, will full taxation authority, and a prime (first) minister. Even the English do not have that. So an English MP cannot vote in Scottish affairs. Yet a Scottish MP to the Westminster parliament can still vote in many purely English affairs. The Scottish National Health Service has always been seperate and independent, and is excellent (I know first hand from having lived in Edinburgh, and visiting many times as a foreigner).

And of course the Scots plan on keeping the British queen as monarch (she is more Scots actually than English, and not correctly Queen of England as most people call her), and they plan to keep the pound. But when Scotland sees their share of British debt, they'll get cauld fit a' richt!

Jerusalem:

Yes, the US has always leaned on Israel to give up settlements and east Jerusalem. It doesn't get much press in the US, but even under Bush it was made clear that Jerusalem is not Israeli. Bush played at being pro-Israel, but his bonds were with the Sa'udis. But as Israel has no treaty with the US for "coming to our rescue," I see little room for much US involvement. The Cold War alliance is withering.

Last edited by David of Galilee; 11-27-2013 at 08:07 PM..
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Old 11-28-2013, 12:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David of Galilee View Post
Regarding the pro-Nazi Ukrainian sentiments in WWII (at least initially):

I differentiate, in classic Talmudic style, between understanding something, on the one hand, and agreeing or liking or approving of something, on the other hand. The Ukrainian reaction was a classic case of responding to one evil with another. By saying I understand why they did it, I mean that I see the historical pathway they took, the series of actions and reactions that resulted in strewing flowers in the path of the Panzers. All of which they came to regret, as the Germans barely cared about the identity issue between Ukrainians and Russians, and ultimately mistreated all Slavs equally. Slavs were the worst of all "white" men for these so-called German Aryans. Never mind all the mixing of German and Slavic blood in central and eastern Europe.

Scotland:

The Great Lairds of Scotland, and the corrupt Scottish parliament, sold out independent Scotland for commercial union, English titles, and bags of gold. To be fair to the English, they had no plans to force the issue, as Scotland was, in fact, very dependent on English gold already, and already in a Union of Crowns. In fact, they had a century when Scottish Stuarts reigned over both independent kingdoms, and the nobility of Scotland by and large chose to look south. Whereas, the Scots people were happy with their own beautiful and not so poorly kingdom. They have also had a disproportionate amount of power out of the United Kingdom and the British Empire. In fact, the Scots absolutely thrived as imperialists all over the world. Many royal governors in the American colonies were Scots. A Scots admiral burned down Washington in the War of 1812. The Opium Wars were started by the Scots of the firm Jardine Matheson, who forced opium on the Chinese--not the English who are usually blamed. I shed few tears for Scottish claims of abuse. They have had a number of Prime Ministers, senior government officials, general and admirals, diplomats, etc. who were just fine with having authority over the English and the Welsh and the Irish. And the English believed in the unity of all British nations, and never cared if a Scot like Tony Blair rule the UK, or Gordon Brown after him. Even Cameron, although English born, is of Scots ancestry. Scotland could be a prosperous independent nation, but, to jump from being outnumbered by ratio of 1:10 in the United Kingdom, to 1:100 in the EU is suicide for independence. The EU is France and Germany, first, Italy, Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark second, Spain, Portugal, Greece, then a few bits and pieces last. Scotland will have influence behind small but entrenched Luxembourg.

They have a real, powerful parliament, Holyrood, will full taxation authority, and a prime (first) minister. Even the English do not have that. So an English MP cannot vote in Scottish affairs. Yet a Scottish MP to the Westminster parliament can still vote in many purely English affairs. The Scottish National Health Service has always been seperate and independent, and is excellent (I know first hand from having lived in Edinburgh, and visiting many times as a foreigner).

And of course the Scots plan on keeping the British queen as monarch (she is more Scots actually than English, and not correctly Queen of England as most people call her), and they plan to keep the pound. But when Scotland sees their share of British debt, they'll get cauld fit a' richt!

Jerusalem:

Yes, the US has always leaned on Israel to give up settlements and east Jerusalem. It doesn't get much press in the US, but even under Bush it was made clear that Jerusalem is not Israeli. Bush played at being pro-Israel, but his bonds were with the Sa'udis. But as Israel has no treaty with the US for "coming to our rescue," I see little room for much US involvement. The Cold War alliance is withering.
Excellent analysis based on facts!

This part: " Scotland will have influence behind small but entrenched Luxembourg."

Is Haha funny and true! LOL!
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  #20  
Old 11-28-2013, 05:56 AM
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I recall the old Robert Burns Poem about the Scots aristocracy,

SUCH A PARCEL OF ROGUES IN A NATION
Fareweel to a' our Scottish fame,
Fareweel our ancient glory;
Fareweel ev'n to the Scottish name,
Sae fam'd in martial story.
Now Sark rins over Solway sands,
An' Tweed rins to the ocean,
To mark where England's province stands-
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!

What force or guile could not subdue,
Thro' many warlike ages,
Is wrought now by a coward few,
For hireling traitor's wages.
The English stell we could disdain,
Secure in valour's station;
But English gold has been our bane-
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!

O would, or I had seen the day
That Treason thus could sell us,
My auld grey head had lien in clay,
Wi' Bruce and loyal Wallace!
But pith and power, till my last hour,
I'll mak this declaration;
We're bought and sold for English gold-
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!
Perhaps the Ukrainians have their own version of such leaders.
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